severe water electrocution HELP!

[breakdanc3]

I'm an electrician and i get shocked occasionally by sticking my fingers into live outlet boxes. I had my hand grabbing a ground wire once and my forearm grazed the hot wire which was unstripped just the tip copper touching my arm and it made my arm lock up and wave up into the air which got the hot wire off my arm. I had a very small burn like melted skin but it was the size of fly.

How well you are connected to hot and ground determines your resistance amount in the circuit. I have never been shocked so bad as to cause any muscle damage. The kind of shock you had sounds like u were grounded severly AND the broken device was making a large amount of contact with the saltwater.

DID u find out what it was that was shocking u ? and yes i do use volt pens and meters and shut off circuits before i work on them ... mmmost the time .. lol

 

[husslr187]

my thumb and finger was my 120v tester for a little while :eek2: but then it became un reliable. i would pull a switch/outlet cover and instead of grabbing a test i would touch a hot and ground terminal if i got shocked i didn't switch off the right breaker. i guess if you keep doing that you lose feeling in your finger tips and it took a few things blowing up in my face to learn that. 277/480 a different story, you dont want to touch that without testing first

 

[sfsuphysics]

Kind of an aside... but on the talk of GFCI... ages back, I remember my GFCIs tripping almost regularly occasionally when my metal halides popped on. They were older magnetic ballasts, often a reset GFCI would allow them bulbs to come back on without issue, but still it bugged the hell out of me that it happened. I figured the capacitors might charge up a tad too slowly and that's what caused the trip... either way I'm long past magnetic ballasts so it's neither here nor there. However is it food for thought if you do install them, and don't have the ability (plugs) to have multiple outlets on a tank (not everyone has a tank so large that they need multiple 20A circuits).

Also I seem to recall that one GFCI "downstream" protected all other outlets, am I miss-remembering? Or is that only true if circuits are wired up in series? (can't imagine why they would)... but again not everyone can dedicate 11 circuit breakers for 11 different circuits on a tank

 

[BeanAnimal]

sfsuphysics:

You don't need multiple 20A circuit breakers. You can put multiple parallel GFCI receptacles (or cord and plug GFCIs) on the same branch circuit.

Receptacles conncted to the "LOAD" side of a GFCI receptacle are also protected by that GFCI.

Here is a drawing showing both: Parallel connected GFCI receptacles and one of them with a downstream protected receptacle:

The drawing is taken from my website at:
http://beananimal.com/articles/electricity-for-the-reefer.aspx
where many of the issues in this thread are discussed in detail.

 

[sfsuphysics]

Thanks for the illustration Bean, makes good sense. I was referring to the person on the previous page who showed their fishroom with what looked like a subpanel just for the fishroom (a little too close to the water for my tastes ) and mentioned running 11 separate breakers.

I was curious about replacing older 2 prongs with GFCIs, would you replace every plug with a GFCI? (as that could get expensive in a hurry) or could you tie the line and load together on the GFCI and just use the existing wiring to protect everything along the circuit? Since you'd more likely than not only have one set of wires going into any particular box (at least with my old as KT wire)

 

[Landsailor]

Bean, of course, is right. I was working on the response during breaks from work and meant to further develop the path statements. Ground probes equal a great path for the electricity to flow through your expensive corals and fish.

It is common building practice in Las Vegas (so I assume, elsewhere, too) for one GFCI outlet in the garage to protect the outlets in all bathrooms and kitchens that are on the same breaker. Look at all the money the builder saves!

Woe to the homeowner who makes that one outlet inaccessible by putting stuff in front of it.

 

[Paul B]

Just about all of the advice on here is good and Kcress explained it very well, if not lengthy.
To easily test for your leakage, just put the test meter on 120 or 150 volts AC.
Take one lead and throw it into the water. The other lead can go either to a ground which is the round hole on the outlet or the longer slot which is the neutral of the circuit.
(hopefully the house is wired correctly, if not, that could also be your problem)
If you read anything under 108 volts or so with the heaters on, you most likely do not have a line voltage leak that could kill you. But being you got shocked, you most likely do. Just unplug things one at a time but don't stick your hand in the water.

The new me doesn't get involved any more in GFCI or ground probe discussions.
(Commercial Master electrician in Manhattan 40 years, retired)

 

[sfsuphysics]

One thing to mention though, before one tests for current might want to just put your circuits on GFCI plugs first just in case you accidentally touch the water.. or you have a leak..

 

[geaux xman]

Okay I bought one of these from homedepot. Are they recommended to use?

Tower Shock Buster 3-Outlet Electrical Cord with Inline GFCI
http://www.amazon.com/Tower-Buster-...=1341027759&sr=8-5&keywords=shock+buster+gfci

If I have the GFCI plugged into the bottom wall outlet and with the top outlet, I plug my MP-60 powerhead. If the GFCI trips, would I still get electricity on the top outlet for my powerhead?

The GFCI will plug my return pump and skimmer. I'm currently not using a heater and my 2x150w MH, I use it very occasionally.

Thanks for the help.

 

[WSPepsilon]

read through most of this so if it was already mentioned sorry, the other thing to keep in mind is that GFCIs will protect from more than just electrocution. If a short happens in a non GFCI protected outlet it could easily cause an electrical fire. If you're not home... may find no house when you return. If you are home, hope to God you're awake and find it before it's unstoppable!

 

[kcress]

read through most of this so if it was already mentioned sorry, the other thing to keep in mind is that GFCIs will protect from more than just electrocution. If a short happens in a non GFCI protected outlet it could easily cause an electrical fire. If you're not home... may find no house when you return. If you are home, hope to God you're awake and find it before it's unstoppable!

You're not real clear here.. For starters GFIs don't care about the amount of current flowing in the Hot-Neutral path at all. It could be 40 amps and the GFI would just melt like all the other wiring. That is the upstream circuit breaker's job to be the correct rating to protect everything down stream.

If you're talking about a Hot/Ground short circuit then again it would be the upstream breaker providing the only necessary protection.

There is no short protection provided by GFIs.

However there would be protection provided by the GFI outlet in the case of - not a short - but instead a high resistance Hot/Ground fault. That's a fault that doesn't draw more current than the upstream breaker can provide. An excellent case would be a power-head that cracks open and exposes just the Hot to the saltwater and an unprotected ground probe is present. Because salt water is a good conductor but not a "great" conductor you could easily end up with 14A flowing thru the tank while the 15A breaker is OK with this load.

14A x 120V = 1,680W would be dissipated. This would boil your tank in fairly short order. If it's a glass tank it would probably spring a leak and slowly drain itself energizing anything the stream or resulting pool touched. You could step in that pond and end up like the little girl in the, above mentioned, miniature golf disaster. If it was an acrylic tank it will likely open like a flower spilling cooked fish in boiling water all over the room.

With a GFI outlet you'd prevent these unfortunate events due to the Hot/Ground protection provided by a GFI.

 

[India]

Do the plug strips with GFIs take the place of a GFI outlet at the wall, please?

 

[uncleof6]

Do the plug strips with GFIs take the place of a GFI outlet at the wall, please?

Not really. These "cord connected" GFCI's most often are labled for temporary use, under three hours. These devices are designed as "extension cords" for use with double insulated drill motors and the like. Adding the fact that extension cords are not allowed for permanent use, i.e. temporary--under three hours. These are fine points, and under certain circumstances, can create a can of worms, with the national electrical code, the NFPA, OSHA, state and local electrical and building codes, in the event of an accident. Primarily with multi outlet strips around salt water, that would be fire--due to a hot to neutral short, that a GFCI will not protect against. (Why OSHA? What if your maid burns up in the fire?)

UL approves these devices for "temporary use," as soon as you mount it to a table, bench (read aquarium stand) it is no longer temporary, it is now permenant. Now most know that in the US, UL does not have any enforcement clause, however, the arson investigators, and homicide investigators--when it comes time for things like insurance and blame, may have something to say about it.

The best practice, is to use these things according to the label/UL Listing, and install an appropriate number of outlets, rather than use temporary devices, as outlined in the NEC.

 

[knight2255]

Okay I bought one of these from homedepot. Are they recommended to use?

Tower Shock Buster 3-Outlet Electrical Cord with Inline GFCI
http://www.amazon.com/Tower-Buster-...=1341027759&sr=8-5&keywords=shock+buster+gfci

If I have the GFCI plugged into the bottom wall outlet and with the top outlet, I plug my MP-60 powerhead. If the GFCI trips, would I still get electricity on the top outlet for my powerhead?

The GFCI will plug my return pump and skimmer. I'm currently not using a heater and my 2x150w MH, I use it very occasionally.

Thanks for the help.

I was thinking of doing the same as this......will that device work to protect me from shocks?