Show me you pictures of mis-barred/unusual clowns

[oceanarus]

I think it is neat how they will develop mis-bars. I have yet had anyone explain to me how/why this happens.

Here is a couple of mine.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=2805&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=2804&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500

I have another that I haven't got a picture of yet but his entire tail stripe is missing, his name is Deuce. I just pulled him out of the rearing tank and put him into one of my reefs. Picture comming soon.

 

[hummer32]

how about some half-bars; fairly common w/ tank raised, but still different.

 

[oceanarus]

Cool! Thanks Hummer32. That is one that I see most common right behind the 'saddleback' looking ones (bar stops about 1/2 way down). I especially like the ones that have the saddle on the middle and tail stripe. I have a friend that I gave one like that and it is beautiful. I will try to get a decent picure of that one soon as well.

 

[catinhat]

Here is one side.

 

[catinhat]

And the other.

 

[catinhat]

Stranger than her middle strip is since she started hosting my carpet her top half from head to tail has been getting darker and darker. So much so that even in the pic's you can see the "line" where the bottom half is bright orange and the top has lost it's orange coloring and is slowly turning black.

 

[Premnas]

Misbarred Clowns

Misbarred Clowns

Hello,
I also have not been able to get an answer to why so many tank reared clowns are misbarred, but just the other day I saw a wild caught A. percula from Biak, Indo witha missing tail bar. I also have one with an extra partial middle bar and this is a wild caught fish! Nice picture.

 

[oceanarus]

Finally got a decent picture of one of the others in our collection. The mis-bar on the female is not the same on the other side, the head stripe is whole and the middle stripe is completely missing.

I know you can't tell from the picture, but the little male behind her is completely missing his tail stripe.

 

[BonsaiNut]

Re: Show me you pictures of mis-barred/unusual clowns

I think it is neat how they will develop mis-bars. I have yet had anyone explain to me how/why this happens.

It is due to any number of reasons - all of which are shortfalls in the rearing environment. If you improve the rearing environment, the incidence and extent of misbarring will decline. Many breeders cull misbarred individuals.

 

[oceanarus]

Re: Re: Show me you pictures of mis-barred/unusual clowns

Re: Re: Show me you pictures of mis-barred/unusual clowns

Many breeders cull misbarred individuals.

Only if they are F-ing stupid! Mis-barrs occur in the wild as well, so I don't hang with the environment theory.

 

[mobert]

I wish mine were mis-barred. I love the look.

 

[JHardman]

Re: Re: Re: Show me you pictures of mis-barred/unusual clowns

Re: Re: Re: Show me you pictures of mis-barred/unusual clowns

Only if they are F-ing stupid! Mis-barrs occur in the wild as well, so I don't hang with the environment theory.

Dude you need to chill a little. Culling is a fact of life, be it in the wild thru predation or in the captive environment.

Mis bars happen in the wild for the same reason(s) they happen in the captive environment. It is generally related to poor nutrition in the fry's early days. It can also be caused by injury and just plain old bad genetic mutation. It is very possible to have less than perfect conditions in the wild. The mis bars in the wild tend to be culled by mother nature, but a very small percentage do make it to an age to be collected.

Breeders cull mis barred clowns for one simple reason, quality. If some major breeder like ORA did not cull the mis barred clowns you would not be able to recognize them as clowns in a few years. People that buy the fish from the breeders demand nice, properly formed fish that look like the holo type of XYZ species of clownfish. Just do a search here in this forum for some of the nasty comments about ORA and quality, people do not like mis barred clowns in general.

I agree there are some very cool mis barred clowns, but it is the responsibility of the breeder to do the job of mother nature and cull any fish that is not up to snuff. It is harsh but necessary.

A note on mis barring, some breeders have been getting much fewer mis barred clowns by using Cyclop-eeze as a second food for the fry. Do a search for "mis bar" and "Cyclop-eeze" in the fish breeders forum for more information on the subject.

 

[mobert]

JHardman---Can you point me to a thread that indicates people don't like mis-bars? I couldn't find it. I was just at my LFS and they had maybe 10 mis-bars there and myself and a group of other reefers were commenting how cool they were. I can understand culling physically impared fish but I find it offensive to talk about culling a healthy fish that I find beautiful. Especially when people are posting pictures of their loved ones.

I'm sure no one meant offense but I don't think it was appropriate to talk of culling.

 

[BonsaiNut]

Re: Re: Re: Show me you pictures of mis-barred/unusual clowns

Re: Re: Re: Show me you pictures of mis-barred/unusual clowns

Only if they are F-ing stupid! Mis-barrs occur in the wild as well, so I don't hang with the environment theory.

A responsible breeder will do everything possible to ensure that his/her offspring are healthy and suitable for sale. This includes culling individuals who show significant genetic abnormalities. Most breeders I know strive to only raise individuals that exactly match the species holotype.

True, misbars occur in the wild. No one knows the actual occurrence of misbarring of larvae in the wild. However, what is known is that very few misbarred individuals make it to adulthood. Misbarring is a sign of something that went wrong early in the life of the individual, and Mother Nature is normally pretty brutal when it comes to individuals that are weakened early in life.

It would be an interesting experiment to separate fry based on how quickly they pass through metamorphosis to see if the stronger/larger fry show a greater percentage of abnormalities than the weaker/smaller fry. Personally, I have no idea, though I would hypothesize that the smaller fry would show more. If you have ever watched clown larvae as they approach metamorphosis you can very clearly see the ones that are going to make it, versus the ones that are probably not going to be strong enough to survive.

Regardless, I am not trying to make a value statement about why you like to keep misbarred clowns. You asked why it happens, and I answered you. You don't see many misbarred clowns from large commercial breeders because they cull them, not because they don't occur. Smaller breeders have as many (if not more) misbarred clowns, and may have few reservations about selling them to the LFS.

 

[JHardman]

JHardman---Can you point me to a thread that indicates people don't like mis-bars? I couldn't find it. I was just at my LFS and they had maybe 10 mis-bars there and myself and a group of other reefers were commenting how cool they were. I can understand culling physically impared fish but I find it offensive to talk about culling a healthy fish that I find beautiful. Especially when people are posting pictures of their loved ones.

I'm sure no one meant offense but I don't think it was appropriate to talk of culling.

I can not find the threads either at this point. But around the first of the year, there were some posts about ORA and mis barred clowns. The consensus was that their quality was dropping and that people did not like that. In fact in one of the posts an ORA employee replied and stated that they aggressively cull and that anyone not happy with the quality of their fish should call to get the situation resolved.

I was not the one that brought up culling. I was replying to a flame about culling. I really do not being called F-ing stupid! for doing the right thing, keeping the species strong and healthy.

I also said ...people do not like mis barred clowns in general.
. If you were to sit down with 10 SW people and asked them what they thought of a breeder that let sub par fish out for sale, I think you would find that the vast majority of people would not like the idea. However with a cute mis barred clown in their face, that percent will likely reverse when you told them that it should have been culled.

I am like most people I like the mis barred clowns too. I would love to raise a bunch of clowns like Project Reefs little Solomon Picasso Percula. But I can not. Mis barring is the result of malnutrition and/or injury and/or poor genetics. I could not as a responsible breeder ever purposely injury, starve or inbreed my clowns to try to produce mis barred clowns. When a person starts breeding they are taking on the responsibility of nature and that requires some harsh and sometimes heart breaking choices to be made.

If you do not like my post, report it to a moderator, don't attack me for stating the case for culling and defending myself and other breeders.

 

[eco-tropic]

I think you will find that most of the big name breeding facilities cull captive bred fish that do not fall within the standards of description or holotype. I can appreciate those of you who really think misbarred clowns are cool, but this preference boils down to beauty being in the eye of the beholder. Some of you think they are awesome and that is great. Even the ugliest of clowns should have a good home.

At the end of the day I have to go with JHardman and BonsaiNut on this argument. If you are serious about what long term captive breeding means you will take the time to ensure that each successive generation is as close to the original holotype as possible. Other than hybridization, which is another touchy matter, my take is that it is best to try to get things as close as possible to what nature designed.

 

[oceanarus]

I appolgize for coming on a bit strong about the culling.

If some major breeder like ORA did not cull the mis barred clowns you would not be able to recognize them as clowns in a few years.

I have never seen it proved that a mis bar is a genetic trait or that it can be passed on from parent to offspring.

It is generally related to poor nutrition in the fry's early days. It can also be caused by injury and just plain old bad genetic mutation.

According to Frank Hoff in "Conditioning, spawning and rearing of fish with emphasis on marine clownfish", that mis bars are caused by delayed metamorphosis.

what is known is that very few misbarred individuals make it to adulthood

Well the female (spawning) in the attached photo must be an exception. Yet this is her first batch so you all will be the first to know when I find out if mis bar passes on to the fry. By the way this pair came originally from ORA and was sold at an elevated price for her 'prized' mis bar, so I don't know about them culling all their mis bars.

It would be an interesting experiment to separate fry based on how quickly they pass through metamorphosis to see if the stronger/larger fry show a greater percentage of abnormalities than the weaker/smaller fry. Personally, I have no idea, though I would hypothesize that the smaller fry would show more.

I don't know about that since the female ocellaris with the wild mis bar in my previous post was the alpha-female in her batch. We had to pull her out and put her with a batch that was bigger because she was giving all the others a hard time.

FYI, our rate of mis bars is pretty low and with it being as hard as it is to just break even breeding fish, I don't really think it is a good idea to cull fish that have no physical deformity. Especially when there is a demand for them, we started out culling them (stupid) then the fish stores said that people want them so bring 'em on.

I really don't want to get into a discussion on the ethics of maintaining a pure strain of a fish, just look at the beta, veil-tail anglefish (freshwater), mollies etc. I think the important point is breeding the fish so that tank raised can be available vice taking from the wild, who would even want a wild beta anyway, have you ever seen one?

 

[mobert]

Can someone point me to studies that show "Mis barring is the result of malnutrition and/or injury and/or poor genetics". I guess I just don't see them as "sub par".

Also, as far as "keeping the species strong and healthy"....our fry will not likely go on to reproduce in captivity to weaken the species. Now, culliing because they are unhealthy or even just because they won't sell is something I can agree on.

Anybody like the X-Men movies?

 

[oceanarus]

I really do not being called F-ing stupid!

I should appologize for that. Jhardman has been more than helpful on this and many more forums. Thanks to him, after years of spending $$$ for distilled water for algea cultures I am now using tap water and saving money. So far so good.

I really didn't mean to say that I think any person is stupid for doing something that I consider is stupid. Lord knows I have done more than a few stupid things in my life (my exwife being a living example of that) but that doesn't make me a stupid person, in my unbiased opinion at least.

And no I am not going to quote Forrest Gump here.

BTW - Know the story behind Nemo yet, he's a deformed clownfish from the wild!

 

[BonsaiNut]

Can someone point me to studies that show "Mis barring is the result of malnutrition and/or injury and/or poor genetics". I guess I just don't see them as "sub par".

It is a well-known fact in the breeding industry that the better the breeding conditions, the lower the rate of misbarring, flat heads, sunken chins, asymetrical fins, etc, and the higher the general rate of survivability of the spawn. Misbarring is one of the least severe of these abnormalities, and is one of the most difficult to completely eliminate. Personally, I think it is related to larval diet, but I have no proof.

If you want more misbarring, I can create a sub-optimal grow-out situation where I can guarantee you 100% mis-barring. I will also have an abysmal survival rate, but I can guarantee you not a single fry that survives will have normal bars. If misbarring were NOT a result of poor breeding conditions, I should see the same rate of misbarring regardless.

FYI, our rate of mis bars is pretty low and with it being as hard as it is to just break even breeding fish, I don't really think it is a good idea to cull fish that have no physical deformity. Especially when there is a demand for them, we started out culling them (stupid) then the fish stores said that people want them so bring 'em on.

We are ASSUMING that fish with misbars have no other physical deformities. Personally, I believe that misbarring is not genetic and that breeding two misbarred clowns may result in normally barred offspring at the same rate as breeding two regular barred clowns - though I have never tested this. However as a purist, I still hold to the standard of the species holotype.

I understand the profitability issue, which is why I raised it in my last post. It is damn hard to make money raising marine fish. The difference between culling misbarred individuals and keeping them could be the 10% difference that makes money or not. And if people like the fish as pets, and have no desire to breed them and spread the offspring, there is no harm in it.

Interestingly, if you purchase pure breed dogs from some high-end breeders, they will often give you a price break on "sub standard" purebreed dogs, but will only sell them to you if you have them neutered. These dogs are GREAT PETS. However, in the interest of the bloodline, the genes stop at that individual.