Sick little guy...?

sickboy

New member
My mantis Norman has been behaving oddly for about three weeks now- I captured some really bad video since a still shot just wouldn't do justice.

The clips are Media Player format and are here:

getting pushed around by the currents and then freaking out a bit...
http://members.cox.net/isnotchicago/vids/norman3.wmv

lots of trouble keeping his tail down
http://members.cox.net/isnotchicago/vids/norman8.wmv

more current action
http://members.cox.net/isnotchicago/vids/norman9.wmv

fighting to make it into his cave and then coming to rest on his side
http://members.cox.net/isnotchicago/vids/normana.wmv

He seems to have no directional control when he moves, to the point that water current will blow him over.

Is Norman a goner? Does anyone have any tips on what to test for or what to do?

Thanks!
 
That's a beautifull animal you have there, I hope you don't lose it. I don't know enough to be any help to you on this topic but there are several people in this forumn who will.:(
I hope that whatever is happening to the little dude isn't terminal.

Good luck
 
holy cow he doesn't look so good... sorry to say but he looks like he's dying... i've had mantises that curl up like that sidways and upside down but that's usually because they don't have enough shelter... and when they get stuck in the open they curl up... but the last time i've seen a mantis go limp and get blown around like that.. he died... check ur water.. maybe try giving him a better shelter spot.. or just turn the volume down on the current..
 
Check your water......Give the animal a buried length of pvc pipe to live in,ciliata live in burrows.How long has the tank been set up?Seems rather "clean" for a cycled tank.Let us know.
 
In reply to the posts so far:

Thanks for the words of support, I'm hoping things turn out ok.

Nitrates are high in the tank but I haven't found a good way to eliminate them. Everything else (nitrite, ammonias, ph) looks fine. Anything in particular I should test for in terms of water?

The tank looks clean probably beacuase of the snail and orchin I have living in there- they cleaned things up in a hurry when I dropped them in. It's also a small tank- Eclipse 6.

The tank has been up for about 6 months. It was set up just for the mantis, I've added snails and hermits to keep things clean and provide entertaintment for him. There was also a larger red hairy-legged crab I dropped in for a while, I seperated them when the mantis begain this behavior.

The mantis (Norman) tends to struggle back to the clamshell and I generally find him there. In the past that was a favorite of his, he spent quite a bit of time borrowing new routes in and out. Now it seems like a retreat.

I'll try the PVC trick- what diameter for this little guy (about a inch or inch and a half long)?

Thanks again everyone!
 
Excessive nitrates could be a contributing factor.Id add some macro algae and do some water changes to start with,see if that eases the symptoms.My shrimp all live in tanks attached to my reef which are all in effect mini refugiums so Ive never seen what reaction they have to high nitrates.Maybe Dr Caldwell could give some insight on this
My spearer constructed its burrow about 1 and a half times its width.HTH
Racer
 
I've never attempted to keep a mantis before. But they are such cool little bugs I'm sure I will someday. Anyway, I don't have the expertise to give any valid advice. But I had a thought. In the following thread theres a description of a shrimp trying to molt. http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90752
It sounds like the mantis behaves the way yours is, I'm sure it wouldn't molt in the open if it had any burrows. But if the burrows it had constructed had collapsed or something, then maybe your shrimp isn't dying after all.
Once again I don't really know what I'm typing about, just a thought. I'm sure people will correct me if I'm completely off base[which I probably am].
 
That Power head you have in there, what kind is it?

I also want to add my 2 cents - First off, you should be ashamed of yourself! You have such a beautiful specimin - yet you give him nothing to play, hide, burrow in. A clamshell is nothing to speak of. Give him a REAL HOME! It also seems you have TOO much current since there is NOTHING in the tank to break it up. The reason your nitrates are high, look at your sand bed. Nothing I have ever seen before.

Give the guy a decent home. How would you like to live in a cardboard box with chicago winds blowing at you constantly? Wouldn't be fun would it? Do a water change, get the nitrates down and lower the flow!

Or, ditch it all and give him what he deserves. Just grates me to see something like that go to waste!

And please, answer the question on the powerhead.
 
Tyrn the current off and give him a break. The current will tire him out. Get some more hiding places in there so he has a place to hide.


Once (If) he looks better, then turn the current back on slowly
 
Kris,

Was it necessary to belittle and degrade to make your point? You do bring up a good point, but if I had recieved that bit of "advice" on my first thread I wouldn't stick around here very long.

sickboy,

We try very hard to keep ReefCentral a friendly place to get information. Please try to look past the occasional "passionate" post.
 
My apologie :rolleyes:

Sometimes thing come out wrong. This was one of them, but please - give him more hiding places, a lower current - just give him what he needs.

GregT:

Sorry, I just started on a bottle of.. anyways, I need to finish it :D
 
I guess it's time for more background.

Norman came to me in a batch of live rock. I happened to have the 6 Gal sitting around turned it into his home. The idea was for a mantis tank- not a reef/mantis tank.

I put the tank together quickly and go it cycled in so he could get out of the breeder I'd put him in with my bigger tank.

He's been in this tank with various tank mates (even fish) without any problems for about six months. I got lazy and didn't check the water levels for about a month and here we are. (it may very well be eight months since I set it up- I can't remember)

At no point previously has he seemed unhappy or uncomfortable. I tend to rotate fixtures and rocks in and out to keep him occupied- if he hasn't used it in a while it's gone, leaving whatever he _is_ using. I pulled some out just for the video recording since it was getting in the way.

To answer the question about the substrate:

http://www.seachem.com/en_products/product_pages/350_onyx_sand.html

It's two inches deep at one side and roughly three inches deep on the other side of the tank. It's what I could find quickly locally. It may very well not be reef compatible- I wasn't shooting for a reef at that time.

With the recommendations from the board and the IRC channels I've pulled all creatures except Norman and a small snail out.

I also picked up a nice rock covered in algae and soft corals and a lighting system to go with it. (SL28 at http://www.customsealife.com/NewFiles/sealights.html)

I'm working the algae angle to get the nitrates down. I also popped a flow control valve on the power head and cranked it way down. Now that just doesn't knock him over- he's still acting strangely.

After the molting question I began putting small doses of iodide in about every other day. I probably won't continue those.

I did a little test- He was floundering around so I picked up the clamshell and dropped him under it. In about 20 seconds his eyes popped out of one of the openings and he sat there just like the old days. After about 20 minutes he edged his way out of the clam shell and hasn't returned to it since. In fact, he hasn't returned to any cover since.

Another test- with the water flow cranked way down I dropped about ten brine shrimp in, wondering if he'd be interested in making them a meal. I saw him catch one and appear to eat it, that's a good thing. The real news was that the brine shrimp never ended up in the filter or the power heard- the flow is that weak now.

I did _not_ rush out and buy 10 pounds of rock and shock the system. I also did not do a massive (1/2 or more) water change. I'm not interested in a quick fix that kills everything.

I didn't do the PVC pipe thing yet- he's really not burrowing or trying to hide. I had a length of hard tube I did put in there, it may not be exactly the right size it gave me a better understanding of the purpose of the pipe. I'll pick some up soon.

On the power heed question- Rio 50. Helpful specs: http://www.graystonecreations.com/riotable.htm

On the negative/positive reaction question... I came to keeping a mantis by accident. At the time I wasn't able to find very much information on them and most LFS places talked about triggers when I mentioned I needed to know how to care for a mantis. I didn't find this message board until recently. I suppose Google has gotten better? It's great to see scientific answers to Mantis questions, but I couldn't find a simple guide to caring for one. (I live in HOWTO guides as part of my job and I couldn't find one for mantis shrimp- go figure)

Anyway- constructive criticism is always appreciated. I took the time to post my original post with video to communicate the problem better. I fully anticipated emotional reactions to watching it and I wasn't exactly on cloud nine over it. Those are only a few small clips- I get to watch him every day. I thought it would be worthwhile to hopefully get some expert advice on the real situation and perhaps fill the archives with information for the next guy (that whole "I couldn't find a howto guide" thing). If Normans demise keeps the next guy's creature alive I'll be okay with that.

I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t get wrapped up in other peopleââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s reactions. I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t own them.

I still have high hopes for the silver bullet answer. I count on Linus' law: "Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow.''

At least there hasn't been any name calling. (yet) :)
 
wait! cancel the iodine!
it forces creatures to molt by POISONING them!
molting creatures with iodine severely reduces their chances of survival.

now, that done...

reef for a mantis is great but a MOWLR tank is also very nice :)

(MOWLR = Mantis Only With Live Rock :D )
 
oh. iodide.
well, according to them, it's safe i guess :D
bad reading on my part. sorry :)

anyway, try chucking in some live rock for ur mantis.
(lots and/or big pieces)
 
Have you thought about putting him back in the breeder net in your main tank? See if the water in your main tank will help him get his strengh? Maybe put some pvc in the breeder net so he feels secure? That would be the first thing I do to try not to loose that gorgeous mantis!

How is he doing anyways could you please update us?
 
Update time:

Water levels remain the same with nitrates off the scale. Yesterday I dropped in about two feet of Grape Caulerpa Algae (Caulerpa racemosa http://www.globaldialog.com/~jrice/algae_page/grapecaulerpa.htm).

Norman isn't effected by currents any more, though he isn't behaving normally yet either. He is spending more time on hits "feet", which would make great photo ops if I had a decent macro lens.

He is now reacting more to actions around him. For instance if he's standing with this eyes against the side of the tank and I put my finger right on the other side of the acrylic he backs up a little. I can wave or do other things and he doesn't seem to notice though.

The other night I dug out a little room under a rock and nudged him over to it. Within and hour he was completely under the rock and I felt better about him possibly being comfortable. By the next morning he was back out in the open. I'm not inclined to push him around too much, but I wonder if I should help him stay under cover?

I will try to get some more video next week- he's an easy subject to light and shoot. :)

I'm beginning to worry about molting. We're up to a month here and unless he's the fastest molter around I can't imagine he's had an opportunity.
 
JEMichael IV said:
Have you thought about putting him back in the breeder net in your main tank? See if the water in your main tank will help him get his strengh? Maybe put some pvc in the breeder net so he feels secure? That would be the first thing I do to try not to loose that gorgeous mantis!

How is he doing anyways could you please update us?

I'm trying to save him, but also trying to avoid making incredibly drastic changes that make matters worse... :)

In terms of PVC or other chnages I haven't seen himf forage or burrow for some time. It takes a very long time for him to move a few inches. The burrows I have set up (even his old clamshell) haven't even begun to attract him.

I did the PVC trick in the tank today, its a tad wider than I'd hoped but I figured it would be better than nothing. The inder diameter is probably 2x his diameter.
 
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