Softie problems without fish

[jccaclimber]

I've been having problems with a green finger leather and my toadstool which I have not been able to diagnose. The leather is usually open with good polyp extension, but has been slowly shrinking over the past couple months since introduction. The toadstool (in a month or so before the finger) is about the same size and does not regularly shed, but has never opened fully since introduction several months ago. Off and on it has what I would describe as 95% polyp extension, but something always seems a bit off. Tank info is below. If I've missed anything please ask.

Things I've tried:
Stop feeding the nems for 3 weeks - slight decrease in algae on the rock, and slightly thinner rems. Mushrooms opened a bit more, but are still doing the same with a return to regular feeding.
Calcium test - reads normal (see below)
Alk - reads normal
Magnesium - read low, since corrected, no change.
PhytoFeast - picked this up yesterday so it is too soon to tell.
More light - Nems and star polyps happier, no other changes.
2 day blackout (just curious) - Everything a bit more open for a couple days afterwards.
Ran carbon changed every 2 weeks for 6 weeks total, no change.
DIY soda bottle skimmer. Skimmed a small amount of stuff, mainly in the days following feeding the nems each week. Never really worked well, didn't like cleaning the airstone, discontinued with no noticeable changes.
Carbon dosing (vinegar then vinegar/vodka). Did this while the skimmer was in use. Very slow cutback on algae only with a large (30cc) vinegar dose. No other noticeable changes when I started and ramped up the vinegar, but everything looks better since I've stopped. Discontinued this a couple weeks before stopping skimming.


Setup:
I have a 14 gallon biocube in my office which has been up for around somewhere between a year and a half. I has a lot of live rock and some chaeto in the back under a CFL. I figure 8-9 gallons of actual water by the time you subtract rock and substrate, but this is just an estimate. A couple months ago I added a 453 nm Current USA TrueLumen led strip wedged between the two stock PC bulbs.

Livestock:
No fish.
Assorted small hermit crabs
1 red mithrax
1 small turbo snail
bristleworms, assorted small stars, lots of pods

Water params:
High 70s, bit cooler at night with the lights off.
Calcium - 400-440
Alk - ~9
Mag - ~1380. I got a test kit and discovered this to be low (1050) around a month ago and corrected this. The only visible changes were 1) Increased coraline growth. 2) Happier frogspawn (was growing before). 2) Happier duncan (also was growing before).
pH~8.3 to 8.4 mid day.
I have not tested nitrates or phosphates.
20% WC once every week or two depending on my schedule.

 

[jccaclimber]

I figure I should add my corals. I don't remember the exact dates of addition, but they are listed in order of addition. I did not notice any changes in other corals resulting from additions later on. It seems like a lot of stuff
I'm planning on moving everything to a 29 gallon BC in a month or two (considering adding a pair of clowns from a co-worker at the same time).

1) Mint green and lime green star polyps. They seem happy enough and grow, but don't look amazing.
2) Some small zoas, spread a bit then slowly vanished over time, came in as hitchhikers.
3) A couple small rose bubble tip nems. Fed krill once weekly. I wait until they get 5-7" across, sell one and do a large water change to make the other split. This process repeats every 4-5 months.
4) Pulsing xenia. Grows like a weed. I've kept this on rock out on the front substrate to make controlling it easier.
5) Four ricordea of assorted colors. Always seem happy, and accept krill (Hikari) on the rare occasion that I feed them. Grow slowly.
5) Frogspawn, one head when I got it (6 months??), now 5. It was only doing OK until I moved it a bit higher in the tank. Got a magnesium test kit a month ago and discovered low magnesium levels (1050 ppm) in my tank and source salt. It has been happy since I corrected this. Accepts small bits of krill when fed (every couple weeks).
6) The previously mentioned toadstool. Hasn't really shrunk, but hasn't grown either. Shed almost constantly until I moved it for more flow. It has only shed once since then (months between sheddings), but just seems like it isn't at 100%, especially when compared to ones at my LFS.
7) Assorted small mushrooms. One hairy grayish one, a smooth red one (finally doing well in the shade), and a few smooth purple ones. The purple ones have slowly shrunk over time.
8) Two green finger leathers. These came in along with a tiny blue sponge and the hairy gray shroom on a trade for one of my baby rbta's. I didn't notice any changes in other corals as a result of their additions and both have good polyp extension 90% of the day. However, both have very slowly been shrinking. Probably 20% smaller over 2-3 months.
9) More small zoas (green). Actually spreading slowly. Came in as a bonus on a trade so I put them in.
10) Duncan. One head when I got it 2-3 months ago, now has 6 or 7 fully developed but smaller heads around the base of the original head.
11) Galaxia. Polyps always open, but no idea if it is growing. Had it ~6 weeks. It is in a place where the sweepers simply flow into the overflow and behind the rock rather than into other corals.
12) ORA green birdsnest. Added maybe 3 weeks ago and partially bleached on arrival. Coloring up nicely and the polyps are always out.
13) A green shroom sold to me at the same time as #11 as a hairy mushroom. It is a mushroom, but the "hairs" are more like oddly shaped swollen ricordea polyps so it might actually be something else. I can get a picture if needed.
14) Purple/blue favia or favites (not sure). Added last weekend because it needed a home from someone breaking down a tank. Seems fine and is accepting food.\

I'm a bit confused since the corals normally listed as easy (mushrooms, leathers, star polyps) seem the least happy and the lps/sps (frogspawn, duncan, galaxia, and now a birdsnest) seem very happy.

 

[trinidiver]

You should get a properly working skimmer

 

[Shane C.]

Do you notice any differences within 12-24 hours after your water changes (indicating a water chem issue) and how is the flow for them? You have a wide variety of corals that like a variety of conditions in a small tank. Might be a challenge making them all super happy, especially when it comes to water flow... The LPS, nem etc like the lower flow, the leathers may want more...

 

[jccaclimber]

You should get a properly working skimmer

That seems to be a religious topic around here. I did a lot of searches for "skimmer for a biocube 14" and nearly all of them ended with "It is too small, there aren't any good skimmers for that size, just change more water.". Do you have a skimmer you can recommend? It needs to be in-tank since this is on my desk at work.

 

[jccaclimber]

Do you notice any differences within 12-24 hours after your water changes (indicating a water chem issue) and how is the flow for them? You have a wide variety of corals that like a variety of conditions in a small tank. Might be a challenge making them all super happy, especially when it comes to water flow... The LPS, nem etc like the lower flow, the leathers may want more...

Other than being a bit unhappy for an hour or so after I stir things up I don't notice anything different after I change water. I also didn't see any differences running carbon. I did notice a slow (across a month?) improvement when adding the chaeto.
Now that you mention it, I did re-angle the outlet a bit so it isn't as directly at the toadstool. I don't remember if that happened at the same time as it started opening less, but I can point the flow back towards it.

 

[Shane C.]

Now that you mention it, I did re-angle the outlet a bit so it isn't as directly at the toadstool. I don't remember if that happened at the same time as it started opening less, but I can point the flow back towards it.

Hmmm... I would try creating a strong but not direct flow and see what it does. The leathers like some good strong water movement. The challenge is providing the flow they want without blasting them directly. Do you have anything other than the outlet creating water movement in the tank?

 

[jccaclimber]

Hmmm... I would try creating a strong but not direct flow and see what it does. The leathers like some good strong water movement. The challenge is providing the flow they want without blasting them directly. Do you have anything other than the outlet creating water movement in the tank?

No I don't, although I keep the rear chambers full so I get a bit more flow than with the rear trickling. Anything I do add in tank will need to have a foam surround to protect the nems as well. To do this I guess my options are:

1) Buy a small circulator and throw it in. This is going to be tricky as things are obviously tight in the tank and it will need to be shielded from nems.
2) Put in a larger return pump.
3) Wait until I set up the 29 which has a larger pump, and put the coral closer to the return.
4) Wait for the 29, and put a circulation pump in that.

I have a couple circulation pumps laying around that I could shield, but I have assumed these are all to large for my 14. Not sure about the 29. Please let me know your thoughts on these:
1) An aqueon 1250 circulation pump w/suction cup mount (no magnet)
2) A smaller aqueon, either a 950 or 750, I'd have to check. Also suction cup mount.
3) An MP40w (non-es) which I am going to put on a large freshwater tank. I won't need it for the next month though.

I could also throw in an airstone, but I'm assuming this won't do much other than add to my salt creep.

 

[Shane C.]

Well, you could play around with your current return and see if you can aim it in such a way to determine if it helps the leathers open up...

If you are working on setting up a 29, and its going to be reasonably soon, I would work with what you have and see if you can make it work. Use your return, then if needed, try you smallest circ pump (dont use the airstone - wont help and will just create a mess) and see if that makes a difference. Wait a few days after each change to see how it affects the inhabitants.

If you are close to having the 29 set up, use the return for now (you mentioned they seem reasonably happy, just not super happy, so I think they will be okay for a while) then try to improve their conditions when the 29 is done.

Understandably, your nems are your priority. Do what you can to make the leathers as happy as you can, but watch your nems closely to make sure they dont get ****ed. You may find that the leathers just have to deal with non-optimal conditions. Creating the different zones for the variety you of corals you are housing could be challenging, even in the 29, especially as they all grow.

PS. You may find that increasing the flow doesnt help at all - but I think its a good place to start.

 

[jccaclimber]

I'll re-aim the outlet on Monday unless I get an excuse to go in to work before then. I don't have any problems with the finger leather not opening, just that it is slowly getting smaller over time.

 

[jccaclimber]

I re-aimed the outlet that Monday, and began adding the phytofeast at 14 drops/day. The toadstool opened partially a couple times, but I haven't seen any changes or improvements since then.

 

[jccaclimber]

I also threw one of the carbon cartridges in late last week to see if that made any difference. Nothing so far, but I can remove it if anyone thinks it is a hindrance.

 

[wireefman]

Softies absorb organics in the water column... fish poo is an organic... I have trimmed down my inhabitants from 21 to 13 fish... my growth has slowed down as the decrease in avail food has diminished... I do over skim when I run my skimmer... also softies love flow.... as much as sps do... so I make sure that ever inch of my tank is high turbulent flow

 

[wireefman]

I don't run carbon... and won't on a softy tank.... I want those organics in the water... for as long as possible... then I skim the dissolved out with my beefy skimmer

 

[jccaclimber]

Ok, so more flow and more food. Slowly push this until the algae explodes or the birdsnest and SPS get unhappy?
I'll have some clowns in the not too distant future (when the tank upgrade occurs). I can acclimate some mollies from my freshwater tank if that starts looking too far in the future.

 

[wireefman]

Yeah my bad I skimmed.. sorry... just get it plenty of flow and light...

 

[Shane C.]

Ok, so more flow and more food. Slowly push this until the algae explodes or the birdsnest and SPS get unhappy?
I'll have some clowns in the not too distant future (when the tank upgrade occurs). I can acclimate some mollies from my freshwater tank if that starts looking too far in the future.

So the coral reacted when you changed the flow and began feeding, right? That's encouraging... Do you feel like it's getting a strong but not too overpowering flow? If so, then you might consider a couple of next steps. 1. Test for nitrate and phosphate. Lets see what those levels are at. 2. Consider for the sake of experiment, reducing the concentration of light the tank is getting. Move the light up or put some eggcrate under it for a week or so and lets see what that does.

And personally, I wouldn't feed the coral anymore until you can regularly test for nitrates and phospahtes. Also, make one change at a time and wait a week before making another change. Multiple changes make it hard to determine what exactly is working or what exactly has caused a problem... (we can't be sure if the flow or food made it open up). It is quite possible that your tank is void of testable nitrate and phosphate... With your tank maintanence habits and xenia sucking up what's available. Would be good to find out.

 

[jccaclimber]

Shane,
For some reason I missed your reply until now. I agree that I should probably run nitrate and phosphate tests. I have my nitrate test at work already, so I'll check that tomorrow. Last time I tested the nitrate wasn't readable, although that has been a while. On Friday I thawed, but did not rinse the krill I feed the nems and noticed that the toadstool opened for a bit after I fed. I tried the same today and it did the same, staying out a bit longer. From trying this in the past I can almost guarantee that I'll see an increase in algae as a result of this, but I'll put up with that as long as the coral comes out.

Once I do get it happy I plan to slowly remove things one by one until it gets unhappy again, then re-introduce them so I can do A-B-A-B to confirm the cause.

 

[Shane C.]

Shane,
For some reason I missed your reply until now. I agree that I should probably run nitrate and phosphate tests. I have my nitrate test at work already, so I'll check that tomorrow. Last time I tested the nitrate wasn't readable, although that has been a while. On Friday I thawed, but did not rinse the krill I feed the nems and noticed that the toadstool opened for a bit after I fed. I tried the same today and it did the same, staying out a bit longer. From trying this in the past I can almost guarantee that I'll see an increase in algae as a result of this, but I'll put up with that as long as the coral comes out.

Once I do get it happy I plan to slowly remove things one by one until it gets unhappy again, then re-introduce them so I can do A-B-A-B to confirm the cause.

It's hard to say where to go next without nitrate and phosphate tests results but as wireefman touched on, you may be starving them. A small fish or two and reducing the carbon may be beneficial to the softies. Again, you are trying to balance a small system and in addition, keep species that most likely prefer different conditions. It may be a situation where nothing is super happy but all are somewhat happy...

 

[jccaclimber]

No phosphate results yet, but my nitrates are between 0 and 5. This is with heavily increased feeding to the corals/nems. My LFS asked to buy a bunch of my xenia and some of my chaeto, so I'll keep an eye on those. Having a hard time finding my phosphate test so I may just get a new one. I removed the carbon (don't normally run any), so we'll see.