I am a beginner at this whole reef thing, and there has been a lot of talk about the BB vs. sand debate and i was thinking of going BB because the sand is too much money for me to pay, and have a shallow per se tank and i dont want to lose volume. So, i figure everyone who knows about BB's should come together and write up sort of a "how-to" for barebottoms. as in, the general ideas behind BB, what type of parts to use, and possible examples of what should work for any given sized tank, 55 75 90. i have read a lot and can gather that you need a good skimmer, good flow, and the cutting board on the bottom. but i don't know what kind of skimmer or how large, same for flow. do i need closed loop? do i need to drill the back of the tank? will a skimmer rated for a 75g tank be sufficient for a 55g tank? these are all general as well as specific things that i would love if someone would take them time and bring everything together, as im sure there are others out there that have the same questions.
Someone PLEASE make a BB Barebottom How-To
- Thread starter Superorb
- Start date
joefish
Premium Member
There are many ways to skin a cat . I've seen very beautiful DSB tanks and BB tanks .
My preference is BB though .I suggest a Beckettn skimmer , penductors or eductors on a CL depending on the size tank .The right sized UV . No carbon use . Sump flow slightly less then the skimmer flow through .Lighting depends on the size tank . No refugium .
So I guess you need to pick a size to start with for better help .
My preference is BB though .I suggest a Beckettn skimmer , penductors or eductors on a CL depending on the size tank .The right sized UV . No carbon use . Sump flow slightly less then the skimmer flow through .Lighting depends on the size tank . No refugium .
So I guess you need to pick a size to start with for better help .
Bomber
10 & Over Club
orb
Here's the problem with a how to for a Starboard Reef, as I see it.
You have the jest of it I'm sure - get it to where it's self cleaning.
There are just way too many variables. Too many different ways to get the same result.
Just on flow, some people might use one huge pump, another a smaller pump with eductors, another some kind of in aquarium pump, etc
Skimmers - only as good as the skimmer can process the amount of water you put through it and your ability to get it to the skimmer. Another huge variable. Different kinds of skimmers, different sizes of skimmers, was it a skimmer that was designed to give the driest foam,
How you stack your rocks. How you configure the pump returns. What kind of rock you use and how well you age/cook it or not.
and on and on
You best bet is to read the Starboard, barebottom, rock cooking, eductor, marine sediments - ect threads. In those threads everyone came at it from every direction. Probably every type and brand of equipment was discussed, every way that people were setting the tanks up, what problems they ran into, and how they fixed it.
Here's the problem with a how to for a Starboard Reef, as I see it.
You have the jest of it I'm sure - get it to where it's self cleaning.
There are just way too many variables. Too many different ways to get the same result.
Just on flow, some people might use one huge pump, another a smaller pump with eductors, another some kind of in aquarium pump, etc
Skimmers - only as good as the skimmer can process the amount of water you put through it and your ability to get it to the skimmer. Another huge variable. Different kinds of skimmers, different sizes of skimmers, was it a skimmer that was designed to give the driest foam,
How you stack your rocks. How you configure the pump returns. What kind of rock you use and how well you age/cook it or not.
and on and on
You best bet is to read the Starboard, barebottom, rock cooking, eductor, marine sediments - ect threads. In those threads everyone came at it from every direction. Probably every type and brand of equipment was discussed, every way that people were setting the tanks up, what problems they ran into, and how they fixed it.
raddogz
Premium Member
First thing first, what are you planning on keeping. One of the effects of going bare-bottom is an increased flow in the tank; however not everything likes this additional flow.
To be perfectly honest I have seen many tanks that have had dsb's which are simply gorgeous tanks - many of them are Tanks of the Month too. I have seen tanks which were bare-bottom and were just as beautiful.
As far as myself, I have a bare-bottom tank, and keep a pre-domninant amount of sps. If sand is that expensive then buying the lighting and the skimmer is just going to seem ridiculously expensive.
To be perfectly honest I have seen many tanks that have had dsb's which are simply gorgeous tanks - many of them are Tanks of the Month too. I have seen tanks which were bare-bottom and were just as beautiful.
As far as myself, I have a bare-bottom tank, and keep a pre-domninant amount of sps. If sand is that expensive then buying the lighting and the skimmer is just going to seem ridiculously expensive.
Qwiv
Persistant Perspective
First, find a profesional (besides Bomber) that recomends a BB tank. When you find him, ask. (P.S. He will be very hard to find) BB tanks are like people wearing bell bottoms again. Most coral wholesalers and propogators (for profit) swear by a DSB. People who hate DSB either messed up their DSB and had a bad experience, don't like the look, follow the RC trends or are 10 years behind the times. There are like 20 people who bash these threads saying BB tanks are the best. Find a current book by a respected profesional in the trade that will recomend them to a beginer and I will send you my sand.
ya, i understand what you're saying bomber. the thing is, on the starboard thread everyone has tanks double the size of mine, and i havent been around the scene long enough to know what skimmers are good for what have you. I have a 55g w/ corner overflow. the tank is empty now and i wanted to plan everyhting out before i fill it and start cycling the tank. i do not want to take everyhting back down again. if i do BB now and dont like it, i could always add sand. if i do sand and dont like it there's much more effort to go to BB from sand. right now i am open to both sand and BB, as i have an unbiased approach since this is my 1st tank. southdown is inaccessible where i live, so that is not an option. aragonite sand is like 50 bux for a 40# bag. i dnt want to do a deep bed because my tnak is only 18" high as it is. it is 48" wide, though. i plan to keep fish with live rock, and an anemone, plus the usual cleanup guys. does that narrow anyhting down a bit? i dont want someone to tell me to buy x pump or y skimmer, just an idea of where and what i should be looking at for the BB setup. i know how to do a sand bed setup, it's this BB thing that is new to me.
Qwiv
Persistant Perspective
Joefish: You are an SPS keeper, I don't think you have a beginner tank. If he can't afford sand, he can't afford to keep SPS. BB tanks are great on display SPS tanks.
Bomber: Don't even talk about bashing. Search RC for DBS and you will find Bomber preaching the praise of going BB on almost every thread. It is like you have stock in it and sit around all day preaching it to RC to raise your stock. You are also one of the top 10 "bashers" on RC. Say DSB five times in a mirror and Bomber comes and kills you. (The above mentioned statement was a bash, but in good humor)
Bomber: Don't even talk about bashing. Search RC for DBS and you will find Bomber preaching the praise of going BB on almost every thread. It is like you have stock in it and sit around all day preaching it to RC to raise your stock. You are also one of the top 10 "bashers" on RC. Say DSB five times in a mirror and Bomber comes and kills you. (The above mentioned statement was a bash, but in good humor)
rireefguy
New member
First of all I am a total noob and have no idea what I am doing....
If you are still reading along here is my story. I have 3 tanks: 2.5 gallon (sand) 10g (sand) and the new 65g BB. Here are my observations (disclamer: see 1st sentence) You have to add more calcium to the BB tank. I also personally am not crazy about the "look" of the starboard. Not to mention I think you need more equipment to do BB right. Upside: the tank stays way cleaner than the sand tanks. Not a great comparison though because the 65 has way more flow, a skimmer, etc. Corals all do better in the 65 (the 2x250 15k XM bulbs probably help here). I guess what I am saying is that IMO either way is viable and I think husbandry and common sense are way more important than what is one the bottom. If you really like SPS I would lean BB, if not flip a coin. I know a lot of people say that DSB can fail after a while and why take the chance. You definitely have more control with BB. In that light I do feel a little safer with the bb. Now I am sure that I have made both the BB and DSB peole angry with this post =) for all of you please refer to the 1st sentence.
Good luck either way!
If you are still reading along here is my story. I have 3 tanks: 2.5 gallon (sand) 10g (sand) and the new 65g BB. Here are my observations (disclamer: see 1st sentence) You have to add more calcium to the BB tank. I also personally am not crazy about the "look" of the starboard. Not to mention I think you need more equipment to do BB right. Upside: the tank stays way cleaner than the sand tanks. Not a great comparison though because the 65 has way more flow, a skimmer, etc. Corals all do better in the 65 (the 2x250 15k XM bulbs probably help here). I guess what I am saying is that IMO either way is viable and I think husbandry and common sense are way more important than what is one the bottom. If you really like SPS I would lean BB, if not flip a coin. I know a lot of people say that DSB can fail after a while and why take the chance. You definitely have more control with BB. In that light I do feel a little safer with the bb. Now I am sure that I have made both the BB and DSB peole angry with this post =) for all of you please refer to the 1st sentence.
Good luck either way!
Weatherman
New member
Superorb said:
For whatever itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s worth, Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll give you some pointers based on my recent experience setting up a 120 from scratch.
Pumps and Plumbing:
Your primary means of nutrient export is going to be your skimmer, so buy one, which is overrated for your tank. For a 55 gallon, look for ones rated for a 110 gallon tank or greater. DO NOT SKIMP WHEN IT COMES TO GETTING A SKIMMER!!
For your main circulation pump, from your sump to your tank, chose something, which matches the flow to your skimmer. Ideal situation would be for your skimmer to draw all the water out of one section of your sump and return it to a downstream section without either section overflowing or running dry.
In Tank Circulation:
Depends on the animals you want to keep, but the flow should be brisk enough to keep light detritus swept up so it can go over the overflow to be removed by your skimmer, and the heavier stuff blown into neat, little, easy-to-reach piles so you can siphon it out.
Tank Bottom:
Lots of choices, but the most popular is a white Ã"šÃ‚½Ã¢â"šÂ¬Ã‚ sheet of High-Density Polyethylene ( MarinaBoard, cutting board, etc.). Itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s smooth to prevent trapping detritus, and durable to withstand the occasional rock fall. Companies, which sell the sheets, should be able to cut-to-order for you, if you provide them with the dimensions of the bottom of your tank. When you measure the inside dimensions of your tankââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s bottom, allow a gap of around Ã"šÃ‚½Ã¢â"šÂ¬Ã‚ on all sides so the board will lay flat on the bottom of the tank rather than on top of any of the silicon seams.
Rock:
After your tank is set up, and all the plumbing of the skimmer and sump is complete, and the tank is full of a fresh batch of salt water, turn everything on, including the skimmer. Then, chose the most fully-cured set of live rock you can find and put it in your tank. Since your skimmer is going to be your primary filtration mechanism, you donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t need a lot of live rock. Chose branching pieces so none of them will lie flat on the bottom. The more spaces around and through the rockwork, and between the rockwork and the walls of the tank, the better. If you want to keep anemones, like bubble-tips, chose rock, which has lots of crevices. Bubble-tips love rock crevices.
Rock Cooking:
No matter how clean your rock looks, plan to keep your tank in the dark for at least five weeks to allow anything dead and dying on the rock to decay away. During this time, set up all your temperature control devices to get your water temperature stable at whatever value you chose. Set up your water top-off apparatus, or establish your manual freshwater replacement routine, to get your salinity stable. Figure out what you want to do in terms of calcium and alk replacement, and get that stable. Get your lighting system and timers set up, but donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t turn anything on yet.
During the rock-cooking phase, keep the detritus cleaned up off the bottom of the tank. Adjust the flow of water in your tank, if needed, to make this job as simple as possible, so when you start adding coral and fish you wont have to rearrange things. Unless thereââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s a huge amount of die off from your rock, the only saltwater you will need to replace is what is skimmed out. Set your skimmer to run very wet so it removes from a pint to a half gallon of water a day.
When you can go for a week or more with almost no accumulation of debris on the bottom of your tank, perform a final, big water change (75-100%). Turn on your lights and establish a stable photoperiod. You should not get any algae bloom. If you do, turn the lights back off and let your rock cook a little while longer.
When you can run a normal photoperiod and not get even a light film of algae appear on the glass of your tank, you are ready to add coral or anemones (if your lighting is sufficient) and fish.
thanks weatherman for taking the time to write some things out. i guess my 75g skimmer won't cut it, even for only a few fish in my system. that's too bad, because i spent a lot of time cleaning it from the previous owner. i wish that there was a way that i could have a 1" sand bed and just have a cleanup crew to do all the work for me, but from what others have said that won't work, and that it's either a 5" bed or BB, no happy median. 
it's not fair.
it's not fair.
Weatherman
New member
Superorb said:
What kind of skimmer is it?
Precious Roy
New member
you said you just want fish and an anemone or two. well put in how ever much sand you want, build your rock structures how you want, go ahead and use that protein skimmer, get a good cannister filter, and don't be lazy like some people who are "amazed" at how "black" their water was when they syphoned their sand bed out of their tank. Clean your tank every now and then, and use RO water. There, I just saved you countless hours of plumbing, atleast 2 weeks of having a tank with nothing in it but dying rock, money on a new skimmer, and days of waiting for crap to settle in a place where you reach it. BB tanks are a great concept, but it's only really necessary if you're not keeping corals. Anemones need good lighting and very little nitrates, easily done with proper maintenance. I'm not trying to knock on your abilities, but if it is your first salt tank, you probably shouldn't do corals. There is a bunch of things you'll discover, have problems with, and learn with just a FOWLRAA (fish only with live rock and anemone), that there is no need for the added stress of adding corals right away. I'm sure you're gonna get another tank eventually because everyone always does (I think it's a rule). When you learn about your tank, learn more about corals, and get some experience under your belt then get some corals. You'll be happy you did cause you will have saved yourself some money and had a more pleasent time with your tank. (this is coming from somebody who works in a pet store and seen dozens of people give up because they tried to go all the way instead of step by step. And I'm not saying you can't or won't be successful at all. It's just my opinion. oh and if you can get a copy of "The conscientious Marine Aquarist" you will be very happy.
As simple as a BB tank sounds..i dont think it's for beginners. I have been reefing for 10 years and I still have to PM bomber elementary questions now and then to make sure I'm on the right track.
That being said, Reefing is a very tough thing for beginners period. In fact, when I began w/ SW, a reef tank was considered VERY difficult to maintain. It is definitley getting easier, but I reccomend researching for at least a month before getting into a new reef tank.
That being said, Reefing is a very tough thing for beginners period. In fact, when I began w/ SW, a reef tank was considered VERY difficult to maintain. It is definitley getting easier, but I reccomend researching for at least a month before getting into a new reef tank.
I found anemones to be harder to keep then corals. Well, anemones other then aipstasia.
My sps were easier to keep even
I had a sandbed and a buncha LR in my first reef tank and it went quite well. I had some sps, mostly lps though. I had a lot of fun, spent a ton of money on critters for the sandbed, really enjoyed watching them all..
BB though, wow, so much easier. IMO. I just had a lot of flow and bought a nice skimmer. I had 3 pumps (1 return, 1 closed loop, 1 skimmer pump), 2 tunze's, a chiller, UV filter, auto topoff unit, 2 heaters and halides. I used kalk for topoff and managed to get amazing colours and growth from my sps.
Only maintenance was once a week I'd clean the skimmer (well, at least I'd empty the bucket... I planned on cleaning the skimmer body but I do get lazy some times) and I'd put a filter sock on the return and blow off any detritus/crud that settled on the rocks and bottom of the tank... remove the sock 15 mins later and enjoy the lack of work. I think I maybe cleaned the glass once every few weeks? I had more of a coraline problem then film algae
That was on my 90g tank. Just my experience.
My sps were easier to keep even
I had a sandbed and a buncha LR in my first reef tank and it went quite well. I had some sps, mostly lps though. I had a lot of fun, spent a ton of money on critters for the sandbed, really enjoyed watching them all..
BB though, wow, so much easier. IMO. I just had a lot of flow and bought a nice skimmer. I had 3 pumps (1 return, 1 closed loop, 1 skimmer pump), 2 tunze's, a chiller, UV filter, auto topoff unit, 2 heaters and halides. I used kalk for topoff and managed to get amazing colours and growth from my sps.
Only maintenance was once a week I'd clean the skimmer (well, at least I'd empty the bucket... I planned on cleaning the skimmer body but I do get lazy some times) and I'd put a filter sock on the return and blow off any detritus/crud that settled on the rocks and bottom of the tank... remove the sock 15 mins later and enjoy the lack of work. I think I maybe cleaned the glass once every few weeks? I had more of a coraline problem then film algae
That was on my 90g tank. Just my experience.
It is a downdraft skimmer, made by aqua clear aquadics. it's likely a knockoff of a well known one. this one-> http://www.theaquariumonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=362
Like i said before, i don't plan on keeping corals off the bat, not for a while. they are not what interests me in a SW tank.
can i have a good cleanup crew and be ok with a 1" sand bed?
for BB, and on my 55g tank for example, what kind of closed loop should be used, where to drill and what sized bulkheads, what sized piping and what gph pump, i know its gotta be a pressure rated one, but i dont know which ones are pressure rates..
Like i said before, i don't plan on keeping corals off the bat, not for a while. they are not what interests me in a SW tank.
can i have a good cleanup crew and be ok with a 1" sand bed?
for BB, and on my 55g tank for example, what kind of closed loop should be used, where to drill and what sized bulkheads, what sized piping and what gph pump, i know its gotta be a pressure rated one, but i dont know which ones are pressure rates..
MiddletonMark
Premium Member
I'd add in some time playing with flow once you've got everything in and running. Heck, take a pinch of fallen detritus from the floor - and release it around the tank and see how well the detritus stays in suspension. See what happens all over the tank - IME, for my smaller size tank, this was tricky as while it's only 36" across the tank, it's 21" from the substrate over the overflow ... that's a lot of `up' and requires excellent suspension IME.
Don't let any settling areas be on the rockwork - the open/exposed bottom is your friend. Down there it's easy to sweep to piles you can siphon, and avoids any patches of debris to feed algae. I had to play with my flow-scape some to take care of this at first - to get the light detritus over the overflow, the heavy stuff collecting where I could siphon it.
IMO while some can stock heavy with fish early on, I personally would suggest going light on fish-stocking for the first while. Get the BB down, the tank stable, and slowly add - I found I learned a lot about tweaking my skimmer, flow ... and while I can/do feed more than I did before removing substrate, it took a while to get everything dialed in and having heavy stocking at this point does not make it easier, I think.
Great thoughts Weatherman. In my experience, it's almost like teaching someone to ride a bike on a reef forum ... not exactly simple to describe how to do right.
Don't let any settling areas be on the rockwork - the open/exposed bottom is your friend. Down there it's easy to sweep to piles you can siphon, and avoids any patches of debris to feed algae. I had to play with my flow-scape some to take care of this at first - to get the light detritus over the overflow, the heavy stuff collecting where I could siphon it.
IMO while some can stock heavy with fish early on, I personally would suggest going light on fish-stocking for the first while. Get the BB down, the tank stable, and slowly add - I found I learned a lot about tweaking my skimmer, flow ... and while I can/do feed more than I did before removing substrate, it took a while to get everything dialed in and having heavy stocking at this point does not make it easier, I think.
Great thoughts Weatherman. In my experience, it's almost like teaching someone to ride a bike on a reef forum ... not exactly simple to describe how to do right.
Bomber
10 & Over Club
Qwiv said:
Noooo, search for barebottom or Starboard threads and I'm participating. I rarely, if ever, post to DSB threads.
You, however, just trolled a barebottom thread.
I just realized that the "DSB Police" are worse than the Tang Police. LOL
Great post Weatherman, and thank you. We probably need to save that somewhere and just link it.
