Still at my wit's end - 3 mos. later -- would you start over?

[Dag]

Anthony, I am appealing to you again, three months later, same problem. Notwithstanding having set up the system "right," my results are extremely disappointing, except for a few corals which I can grow in my tank - e.g., clavularia, encrusting gorgonian, sea rod, ricordeas, and blue ridge coral. Coralline algae and halimeda also grow well (suggesting calcium is high and phospate is low).

Among recent casualties are pavona coral, another acro and now, most alarming, a yellow scroll coral (turbinaria reniformis) -- which many have said is a beginner's coral, very hardy! After a week in my tank the polyps are turning white.

All parameters are stable and in line (as detailed further below) except for slight nitrates, which noone thinks is my problem, at least in the SPS forum -- see this recent thread (including a picture of my tank):

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=394743

I do weekly water changes, and run carbon 24/7. Even though phosphate was low, I added small amounts of phosban and rowaphos anyway (yes, I know some reported bleaching from this, but I used a small amount and my problems predated rowaphos).

I talked to the locals in the reef club, the LFSs, maintenance companies, etc. And some have come to see first-hand. All stumped.

Per your suggestion last time, I looked up green boring algae, but see no evidence in my tank. (Here's our last thread:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=334134 )

It is rather frustrating to see others with much less time and money invested achieve much better results.

I don't know what else to check. I'm thinking maybe its something in the live rock or the DSB. Do you think it's time to give up and start over, as painful as that may be?

 

[Dag]

Oops, neither link worked. Let me try again.

Here's a recent thread from the SPS forum (with pictures):

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=394743

Here's our last thread on this topic:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=334134

 

[Dag]

Here's the summary of tank specifications:

Tank Specifications

- 200 gallon display (73ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚L x 24ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚W x 27ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚H)
- Approximately 180 lbs live rock added on 6/25/03 (plus base rock in the main tank and another 40lbs of rock in the sump and refugium)
- 3 ReefOptix III Metal Halide Pendants ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ 250W each with 10,000 K bulb
- 2 VHO Actinic bulbs hung 3ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ from water
-Circulation loop through sump ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ Iwaki 100 RLT ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ alternate flow between pipes with 3-way motorized valve on each side of center overflow box
- Closed loop with GRI 520 alternate flow between pipes with 3-way motorized valve on each side of tank
- 45 gallon sump
- CS-12-1 Euroreef skimmer
- 40 gallon refugium
- Temp 79.2 ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ 80
- PH 8.05 ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ 8.2
- Salinity is approx. 1.025
- Calcium approximately 400 (Korallin C-4002 calcium reactor and drip kalkwasser)
- Dkh 9 - 11
- DI/RO water
-No ammonia
- Nitrites - Approx .1 ppm or less
- Nitrates ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ Approx. 3 ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“5 ppm

Livestock

9 Fish (all fish introduced in display have lived)

Corals still alive: a bubble, blue and orange ricordeas, blue ridge coral, encrusting gorgonian, branching gorgonia (with extended polyps), lots of halimeda, maroon mushrooms (not prospering), zoos (only some have survived), green/brown pulsing, lemnalia, clavularia/daisy polyps (doing well), and kenyan tree coral (doing well), and purple zoos and some brown zoos (other zoos have died), green star polyps.

Other invertebrate still alive: two rose anemones, two cleaner shrimp, two blood shrimp, green bristle star and another star, fan worm and three clams, two yellow cucumbers, brown cucumber, two fighting conchs, various snails.

Corals that have been lost: three different open brains, two elegance corals, two stylophora, Ã"šÃ‚½ dozen SPS frags, blastomussa, pom pom xenia, pachysera, hammer coral, pagoda coral, plate coral, orange montipora capricornis; , torch corals, and yellow polyps, and pavona corals.

Other casualties: two clams, two fan worms, tiger tail cucumbers, one fighting conch.

Miscellaneous

Coralline algae grows well
Halimeda grows well
5ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ DSB in main tank ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ oolitic sand
6ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ DSB in refugium ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ oolitic sand
Caulerpa in refugium and Chaetomorpha in overflow box

 

[Anthony Calfo]

Dag... I'm truly sorry to hear of your struggles, my friend. I have just read through the threads you've linked and rather agree that your system by the numbers is really near spot on. The pH is too flat if 8.0-8.2 are your daytime numbers (getting a little scary in fact if that 8.0 is during illumination, an indication that it is much lower at night and all assuming that your test did not read a little bit inaccurately high - yikes). But still not likely to cause these losses unless your actual pH in the dead of night was falling well below 8.0 (mid sevens?). For reefs... try to keep 8.4 (night) to 8.6 as a steady target - I feel your tank will be much better for it.

I would not tear the tank down at all... although I honestly do not have a clear solution for you... yet

I must say (and not trying to kick a man when hes down here ) that if you are not quarantining these animals before they are going into the display, then all best are off: pathogen, water quality... who knows?!?! Beyond it being the sensible and responsible thing to do (a QT tank costing mere tens of dollars against the investment of thousands you presently have the system right now)... and beyond it being good animal husbandry (nearly eliminating the chance of a pest, predator or disease getting in after a scrutinizing proper 4 week isolation period)... it would actually serve another purpose here by eliminating variables.

My apologies if I'm mistaken... but I presume since you did not mention QT, you are not doing it. It is my strong recommendation that you and everybody do so. In this specific case, it will be telling if new corals live just fine in QT, then suffer in the display (disease, water quality or pest)... and especially if they recover once back in QT (implicating water quality again).

You really have assembled an outstanding system here and there is no logical reason to scrap it. Other aquarists in your home town region are using the same source water and have similar equipment. I just dont see (yet ) what the trouble is... but I suspect it is something very specific and unique to this tank (will not be repeated in QT).

By chance have you chatted with the boys over at Old Towne Aquarium? I have great admiration for the quality of their staff and the quality of their livestock (I regard their supplier as one of the best in the nation). Perhaps they'll have some insight or one of their staff can consult for you?

In the meantime I'm happy to do whatever I can! PM me and we can chat by phone if necessary

no worries... we'll lick this my friend.

Anthony

 

[Anthony Calfo]

OK... this is an incredibly off the cuff question, but I'm reminded of another system that I consulted on that defied explanation for its struggles until finally after combing over every inch of the system and hardware, we discovered that a maintenance person had replaced a plastic valve with... a brass one. Doh!

You dont happen to have any non-plastic fittings inline anywhere do ya?

just checking...

Anthony

 

[rick rottet]

We had a guy in our local club experience a similar issue with a pump that had a brass seal.

 

[Dag]

not trying to kick a man when hes down here

Down but not out. Really, Anthony, kick all you want. My personal theory is that my misfortune is the result of hubris, thinking the "perfect" system would make my corals grow. It is not by protein skimmers, refugiums, dsbs or the like, do corals grow, but by the Almighty Creator who brings forth all from nothing in its infinite variety and splendor. A kick in the teeth cultivates humility, the proper vessel for blessing. My penance, I fear, is having to start from scratch, this time with due reverance and awe.

I am encouraged by your words, however, as well as the implicit commitment (non-binding of course ) to help lick this problem.

if you are not quarantining these animals before they are going into the display

:worried: :worried:

Fish I quarantine. With corals I have been lax.

However, your point is well taken, and the QT could be a useful diagnostic tool. The QT is now being setup and I will transfer the yellow scroll coral into it. Perhaps it will still live. Although I usually fill the QT with water from the display, this time I used fresh (but aged 24 hrs) make-up water.

try to keep 8.4 (night) to 8.6 as a steady target

If I could I would. It's all I can do to keep it above 8.0. I believe low PH is is because of the calcium reactor. I dose kalkwasser to keep it up between 8.1-8.2 (daytime numbers). If I don't dose, it will drop below 8.0. I also try to keep alkanity around 10-11 dkh to keep up the PH.

The good news is that I don't think it drops much below 8.0 at night (the aquacontroller gives me nighttime readings), perhaps because the refugium is on a reverse lighting cycle.

Right now the QT tested at 7.91 and I added some washing soda and kalkwasser to bring it up.

have you chatted with the boys over at Old Towne Aquarium?

Yes, a couple of times. I agree that both the staff is knowledgable and the livestock of good quality. Last time I told my tale of woe, one of the fellows suggesting dosing iodine. Frankly, I didn't think that was likely to be the cause or the cure, so I didn't. Am I mistaken?

You dont happen to have any non-plastic fittings inline anywhere do ya?

The Korallin calcium reactor comes with a brass check valve, but water doesn't flow through it. The Spears 3-way actuated valves have some kind of metal band (or reinforcement) on the outside of the union, but the metal doesn't touch the water and the inside of the union is plastic. I have a Aqualogic chiller plumbed in-line but I'd be surprised if that was the problem. There is check valve (from Savko) but that also is some kind of plastic. The pumps are Iwaki and GRI (no modifications, alterations or repairs). There are two Sedra pumps that come with the Euroreef sitting in the sump. There are a couple of probes in the sump as well along with a ground probe. The heater is a metal rod (I forgot what kind that was!).

That's it. That's everything that touches the water.

When I siliconed the bulkheads, I made sure to use the silicone sold as aquarium sealant, not the Home Depot stuff (so no risk of fungicide, etc.)

Thanks again for the encouragement. I felt better immediately.

 

[Anthony Calfo]

I agree... an iodine deficiency (unless water changes had been extraordinarily remiss) is not the likely source of the problem. But I am strong advocate of dosing iodine (daily) and think the advice was good. While I'm also outspoken about relying on water changes for dilution and elemental replacement while avoiding most supplementation... there are some key params to test and dose for. Calcium and Alkalinity you know... keeping an eye on magnesium too... and yes, iodine. Iodine has an extremely short lifespan in seawater... its readily taken up by animals or otherwise exported from the system in hours/days. I favor tiny daily doses rather than large weakly doses. Some very impressive reef displays give a measure of credit to health, vigor color and growth of their corals to the faithful use of Iodine.

That said, again <sigh>... it still is not the problem here. I'm reassured of your thoroughness... delighted to hear of your choice to set up a QT for the inverts (with new/aged water). And am in your service. Lets see what we can do.

Ooh... by the way, somebody got their wires mixed up on the recommendation of a yellow scroll Turninaria to you. They are quite far from being a beginners coral! They have tiny polyps and feed very little organismally (this rarely bodes well for aquarium candidates)... but rather depend on adequate (bright) light and feeding by absorption. Some sps keepers do very well with them (usually in tanks with high fish/nutrient loads)... but more people than not do rather poorly with yellow Turbinaria.

The real trooper in the genus is Turbinaria peltata (green or brown). This very large polyped Turbinaria is staggeringly easy to keep and propagate. Its literally one of THE hardiest corals money can buy. Truly an outstanding species. FWIW

Anthony

 

[Dag]

:hmm2:

I think I lost a turbinaria peltata (a/k/a pagoda coral, right?) a few months ago. It was greyish.

As for iodine, would you dose iodide rather than iodine? and if so, what dose? (ESV recommends 1 drop/gallon/week for its potassium iodide product).

 

[Anthony Calfo]

Hmmm... I see. Yikes! Yes... pagoda or cup coral - Turbinaria peltata. Literally top ten hardy among hundreds of corals. This is perplexing.

Could I trouble you to symptomatically describe the lost corals in more detail in the hours/days/weeks before they died? Polyop extension or not, any evidence of necrosis? Mucus? Sloughing? Secondary infections (brown jelly, white fuzz)? Anything other than corals not faring well (fishes, motile invertebrates)?

As for the iodine... both can work well. I favor Lugols solution. But whichever iodine you choose... there is inevitably some experimentation involved to find your ideal dose. Start conservatively low with the mfg recommendation (or 1 drop per 50 gallons per week of Lugols undilute). Increase it slowly in time to see how far you can push the envelope with doses increasing to daily. Use an iodine test kit as a guide, but dont lose sleep over the readings. The first sign of excess iodine if you are increasing slowly is a spike in brown diatom algae growth on the aquarium glass. If this occurs after a recent increase in iodine, simply back down to the last dose and skim heavy for a few days - no worries

 

[Dag]

No trouble at all, Anthony. Thanks for asking.

The typical pattern is that the coral is fine for a 1-2 weeks, then it slowly begins fading and turning white at the edges until the thing loses color altogether and is eventually taken over by algae (usually coralline). I did notice mucus near the yellow pavona coral that recently croaked. It's hard for me to distinguish between necrosis and something turning white. Also, I don't know what sloughing is.

No secondary infection. I would say no polyp extension (or at least none that I noticed). If the polyps are extended, that's usually a sign of good health. the polyps extended on my blue ridge coral and the sea rod (plexaplaurus?) and they seem to be doing well.

All fish (9 of them) placed in the display have lived, some for a year. Cleaner shrimp and blood shrimp seem fine. Green brittle star and some other brittle star seem fine. Snails seem fine. Fighting conchs are fine (but I have lost some). Plenty of bristleworms, copepods, and mysis. Cucumber seems fine.

Yellow scroll is in the QT. Perhaps insignificant, but I did notice a little fan worm come out that I hadn't seen emerge before.

Perplexing? It's exasperating!

Tell me again, please, that we'll overcome ...

 

[Dag]

A couple of more observations of potential interest.

I bought one of those plain brown encrusting corals that has the pretty blue, orange and red little fan worms coming out of it. The coral died (or at least is mostly covered by coralline algae now) but the worms are doing fine.

There are lots and lots of tube worms. Alots lots of little fan worms coming out of the rocks.

I have a feather duster that has stayed alive for several months.

 

[Anthony Calfo]

Hmmm... it definitely does not sound like a pathogen or predator to me based on the informtation this far. Indeed some physical parameter stressing them (water quality/light).

Without getting too deep into a sea salt quality debate, if you trust my judgement let me suggest you do a very large water change or two (50%) in the next couple of weeks with a time-tested, quality sea salt (Tropic Marin gets my vote here). And use some poly-filters with activated carbon full-time (you are already doing this I believe/suspect). Poly-filters are fantastic chemical filtration media. The hope/premise here is that if it is an unrecognized or untestable corruption of water quality, then "Dilution is the Solution to Pollution"

This all presumes that the source water is not the root of the problem (you are not using distilled water produced with copper condensers, are you? Heehee)

If you use DI or RO water... be sure to aerate overnight and then buffer before salting. Prefiltering the water from Go with carbon and/or polyfilters is not a terrible idea either.

Lets see if we can eliminate water quality as an issue. The large water changes surely will not hurt us here. Be sure to adjust temperature, salinity and pH carefully.

Hmmm... have you verified the accuracy of your hydrometer BTW? Do consider taking samples to a LFS or another aquarists for testing on a different brand/style of instrument. FWIW... I favor a quality glass hydrometer even over the crappy (under $100) hobby grade handheld refractometers. And I use but dont trust plastic hydrometers farther than I can throw them

Salinity shock/stress will cause these general symptoms (hence my previous wonder about sudden influxes of freshwater for evap top off). I'm wondering now if the SG hasn't strayed and is being misread?

Whew! a toughie

Anthony

 

[Dag]

if you trust my judgement

Borrowing from the 12 steps, if you don't like the way your tank has been going so far, fire the guy in charge -- that's me :eek1:

distilled water produced with copper condensers

I use a RO/DI filter, but my house lines are copper. Do you think that could be a problem? Could copper be leaching from the house plumbing lines and getting past the RO/DI filter? I tested the water for copper with a Salifert test kit and got no reading, but I suspect those kits don't test for all kinds of copper.

Without getting too deep into a sea salt quality debate

I was using CS until 5/15 (I know what you think about that, but see this month's tank of the month using CS), at which time I switched to Oceanic. I have been 20% water changes since, and so far have gone through 2 1/2 200 gallon buckets. Salinity, temp and PH are matched to existing water.

50% water changes are tough, since my make up tank is only about 60 gallons. Let me think about this.

If you use DI or RO water... be sure to aerate overnight and then buffer before salting.

What does buffer mean?

Prefiltering the water from Go with carbon and/or polyfilters is not a terrible idea either

The water in the makeup tank has a chamber I could fill with carbon. Will do, thanks. Polyfilter is bit more difficult for makeup but I do use them in the display.

have you verified the accuracy of your hydrometer BTW

I have two refractometers, and have calibrated both and checked on both. I will get the glass hydrometer you suggest.

(hence my previous wonder about sudden influxes of freshwater for evap top off)

I use the Osmolator for topoff. Usually just a little at a time. and it automatically shuts off after 10 minutes if for any reason the water precipitously drops.

Whew! a toughie

Hey, don't get discouraged! (I feel like the really sick patient who has to cheer up his visitors. :mixed: )

Take care. Thanks for the help.

 

[Anthony Calfo]

By "buffering" the Ro/Di water, I mean "remineralize" it to give it some hardness and stability (using common seabuffer... carbonates and bicarb mostly). Please... NEVER use raw RO/DI water. It is acidic and unstable and at best a burden on your tank's pH and alkalinity. It could be worse and is a very bad habit nonetheless.

Before buffering though, its important to aerate such water overnight to raise the pH temporarily (off-gassing carbonic acid).

Do test your water at each stage... its quite a learning experience. Especially the raw RO/DI water. Yikes!


Anthony

 

[Dag]

Interesting.

What would the dosage of the buffer be?

Assuming I have a container of buffered RO/DI water for topoff, should I continue to aerate it even after buffering until the container is exhausted?

That might explain why my tank PH is low.

 

[jnb]

forgive this intrusion

forgive this intrusion

this is the first time I have heard of this treatment of ro/di water - can you provide a link for verification (I believe you; just want full detail)

sorry for the intrusion I won't come back

By "buffering" the Ro/Di water, I mean "remineralize" it to give it some hardness and stability (using common seabuffer... carbonates and bicarb mostly). Please... NEVER use raw RO/DI water. It is acidic and unstable and at best a burden on your tank's pH and alkalinity. It could be worse and is a very bad habit nonetheless.

Before buffering though, its important to aerate such water overnight to raise the pH temporarily (off-gassing carbonic acid).

Do test your water at each stage... its quite a learning experience. Especially the raw RO/DI water. Yikes!


Anthony

 

[Anthony Calfo]

jnick, good to hear from you... no worries, its no intrusion at all

using untreated de-mineralized water is a common mistake. We answer questions about this and many topics weekly at wetwebmedia.com

Please do consider checking out the site... it is a non-profit, free content website with a staggering amount of archives articles and FAQs.

If you do a keyword search from the index page with the google search tool, you'll find this topics answered at length in more than a few places. Do take the time to read/learn and enjoy the journey

It really is as simple as described above though... de-minderalized water is... well, de-mineralized MOst of the good and bad things have been taken out. We want to put back in some of the good ones to stabilize it and prevent it from being a burden on the main tank's pH, ALK, buffering pool in general.

Best regards,

Anthony

 

[tacocat]

Dag, do you smoke in your house? Does anyone use cleaning chemicals in and around your tank, wood polish, windex, etc? Finally, are these SPS corals captive bred, farmed, or wild caught? I find that wild colonies don't do nearly as well as captive specimens.

 

[tom8344]

Thanks!

Thanks!

I have the same problem as Anthony but I think you solved my problem, I have a brass valve. It's coming out tomorrow and carbon is going in. Thanks so much!!!!!

Tom