Sugar

L

Lazyreefer

Premium Member
After reading Tuans post about Vodka, I have decided to try sugar. I will use 1 teaspoon every other day for 2 weeks on about 160 gallons of water.
After reading some 10 page long thread it looks like a main side effect is lack of oxygen in the tank. I do have a protein skimmer so that helps. But this can kill fish by robbing thier oxegen.
So far after 2 days my skimmer has gone nuts as is supposed to happen.
I am doing this to get rid of phosphates. I will let you guys know how it works out.

Also something interesting... Randy the chemistry guy is opposed to this idea. His opinion is that you should use other ways to export nitrates and PO4. I have done about 10 things and feel like I have exhausted all opportunities except one. Someone in that long thread pointed out that this would be a biological issue not chemistry. Cause the sugar feeds the bacteria etc. They thought a microbiologist would be more of an expert.

So........... Paul in Tim this is where you guys can tell me if I am stupid or not.

2 other interesting tidbits. My feather dusters are supposed to grow really well and it is rumored that everyone does this in Germany.
 
dougie..i have been using volka but i am thinking about sugar..i overdose in my nano as a test source and my two damsels croaked...i am going to try with you dosage...nitrate down?
 
I am also doing the sugar dosing, started at 1/8 teaspoon per day on
11-2 and am currently at 1/2 teaspoon per day.

Several days in, the water got milky/cloudy, kind of like when
you set up a new FW tank, for about a 24 hours, then the water got
very very clear and has stayed that way. Ammonia is zero, Nitrites
are Zero, however there is currently a small trace of nitrates, but it
seem to be going down.

Watch your mushrooms, several posts said it caused their
mushrooms to shrink in size.

As a science experiment this is a poor one though, I have already changed a variable other than the sugar. I Added the modded
maxijet 1200 to the display tank, and it blew up all the
undissolved stuff in the tank, which then went through the
skimmer and in to the collection bucket. so my results may
be a result of both the sugar and the maxijet mod.

However, my water is clear, and the small amount of hair
algae in the display seems to be turning white and dying off.

I currently have the Maijet Mod in the sump, it really keeps the
chaeto cleaned out.

I need to get the other Mod built so I can have on in the sump
and one in the display.

Chuck E.
 
hey chuck..how's the leather?....it was my first frag:) i think i will do some more after christmas...the leather is getting bigger again...
 
Tuan,
The leather is doing great, it is really coming out now, and growing
over the place where it was fragged.

When ever you frag the other leather I want to be on the list a frag
of it as well (I believe you said the other one was a green leather.)

How much vodka have you been dosing per day? (The tank, not
your self :-) ). And what changes have you noticed?

Well, gotta go to bed, work tomorrow.


Chuck E.
 
hey chuck
i have a wild colony very, very green pollyp leather..paul has seen it..much more green than the ones at petco...but i am kinda scare of cutting it...maybe in a few month. i have been putting about a capful in my 240...have not test so dont know if it is doing well but you can see a decreased in activity with the softies and the LPS...too risky i think. glad the leather is doing well..
 
Re: Sugar

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8583042#post8583042 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Lazyreefer


So........... Paul in Tim this is where you guys can tell me if I am stupid or not.
Click to expand...

Seems like a questionable method. Sure the bacteria will absorb the nitrates and phosphates, but a skimmer is not going to pull out bacteria in any appreciable quantity. Thus, now you have a very large bacterial population in your system. If you cannot keep them at some form of stasis, they are either going to create a massive bloom or massive crash.

Ultimately, one needs to determine where the source of so much phosphates is coming from. Either it is overfeeding, poor topoff water or "old tank syndrome". The latter of these I had problems buying for a long time, but I do think that excesses might build up in your sand/rocks over time and eventually start causing systemic problems.

T
 
Tim and I discused this for a while this morning, im pretty much in agreement with what Tim has posted. I alos have a number of other concerns. The main concern is this, the bacterial population you will establish will suck nutrients up, but be limited by a certain factor. In this case it is carbon sources. You add carbon (sugar or ethanol) and the bacterial density explodes. You now have all the nasties (phosphates and nitrates) bound by bacteria and not in the water.

What happens on the day you dont feed the sugar. The bacteria will begin to die releasing all those same pollutants.

I also do not think a skimmer will pull bacteria from a tank in any appreciable amounts. Whether it will or not depends very much on a couple of factors. Where the bacteria are growing (planktonic or on surfaces) and what surface structural properties they have. Since very little is truly known regarding the microbiology of marine tanks, its difficult to even begin to answer that issue.

Feeding bacteria for improved denitrification is a common industrial practice, but im not sure it will lead to phosphate eradication. For that to happen the phosphate has to be physically removed. By removing nitrate the algae in tanks will disappear since an essential nutrient is removed.

Phosphates usually are a result of bad feeding practices. Large quantities of food, such as shrimp and or other meaty foods have a large degree of phosphates. Water (not RoDi, or badly prepared RODI water) and some marine salts contribute as well.

The best method of phosphate removal remains the harvesting and physical removal of macroalgae from a tank.

I think the sugar thing masks symptoms but does not fix them and may result in isues the moment the dosing is halted.

anyways...these are just my thoughts....take o leave as you desire.

Paul.
 
I agree with Tim/Randy for the most part. Yes, there are far better ways to compensate for problematic issues with an established reef. But, I think that the method is viable, yet untested to an amount to be any use to an average hobbyist. Too much simple sugar, and you have a bloom. Too little and you either crash what you've worked up for or you aren't doing any good. Now, the good news is that with a skimmer you aren't taking out the living bacteria, you are taking out complex proteins. One other worthy note is bacteria are like algae when you are talking about nutrient control. The more bacteria/algae that you grow, the less nutrients in the system. But this only works if you can find a way to successfully take it out of the closed system. Manually removing algae would be the same as skimming out the extra bacteria. But, if your algae/bacteria start to die back without doing anything to help it, all the nutrients will just be released back into the aquarium. So, if you were to dose simple sugars for a brief period of time and suddenly stop because "things look good", all that massive amount of bacteria will die off and release it back into the system. In an EXTREME case, this would theoretically crash your tank. On the other hand, in order to use simple sugars as a means of nutrient control successfullly, you'll need to make sure that you are putting nutrients in the tank at a decreasing rate and slowly wean off of the simple sugar dosing. For example, if you have a high bioload that your tank just can't keep up with, then adding simple sugars won't help in the long run. Now, if you are in the process of correcting a problem, then it is note worthy that it might help. Let's look at a sample tank.

Joe Blow is a new, unexperienced aquarist that took a really bad fish stores advice and set up a 120g tank with a trickle filter filled with bioballs, a SeaClone Skimmer, Rio pumps, HOB BioWheels, dense Texas Holey base rock, and crushed coral substrate. He then stocks the tank with lots of tangs, some messy predators, etc. On top of all that, he doesn't do water changes, feeds like crazy, and so on. A year later, he has massive algae problems and Nitrates and Phosphates through the roof that he just can't control. Joe Blow now decides to be a responsible aquarist and not just give up. So, he does a little independent research and decides to take a plan of action.

Jow Blow decides that he wants to use more biological filtration, so he takes off the HOB Filters, upgrade his skimmer, remove the bioballs, replace the crushed coral for a deep sand bed, convert the trickle filter into a refugium to grow macroalgae, switch out his dense rock for some nice, light, porous, live rock, and then he takes a look at his husbandry techniques. He realizes no matter how much biological filtration you have, if you are producing more nutrients than your tank can keep up with, then you are losing a never ending war. So, he decides to cut back on feeding, up water changes, and reduce his livestock to a more appropriate level.

This finally leaves him producing less nutrients than the biological filtration can keep up with. So, he takes a look at using simple sugars to help with the process. He starts dosing just minute amount to boost the bacteria. Over time, the bacteria population is dense enough to keep up with the nutrient input and now he decides to slowly stop dosing so the bacteria can take care of themselves. In an event that Joe Blow actually has succeeded in making sure his nutrient input is less than his nutrient uptake will assure a successful simple sugar dosing and long term success with nutrient control.

Now with all that being said, you can see that the process that the bacteria will go through when you dose simple sugars can be achieved the way most people hope for, but simple sugar dosing has a specific time and place to be successful. If you stop dosing all at once or have more nutrient input than nutrient uptake, then you could potentially encounter problems.
 
My opinion on the matter is similar, but slightly different.

I definitely agree that dosing sugar (of any form) to encourage bacterial growth is a risky technique. And I'd agree that this is the wrong solution to the problem.

My point of disagreement is on feeding. I am a big proponent to engineering the system so that you can purposely feed a tank generously. For my tank that means the following filtration methods...

1. Live Rock (of course)
2. Pseudo-DSB in tank (a little shallow, but very fine grain)
3. RDSB (Remote DSB) - plumbed into sump, 5g water cube filled with sand
4. Chaeto growing (like mad) in sump
5. Protein Skimmer
6. Carbon (3/4 - 1 cup) - changed once a month
7. Phosban (1/4 cup) - changed once a month

The phosban and carbon run together in a phosban reactor.

Anyhow, with these methods, I feed lots of food to my tank. Plenty of frozen foods, etc. And all corals (from Softies to SPS) grow very well.

So I think it is all a matter of method. From my ramblings you can sum up to say that I highly recommend the use of a Granulated Ferric Oxide phosphate remover (like Phosban) and the use of Chaetomorpha. And do yourself a favor, avoid Caulerpa due to its noxious to the point of toxic exudations.
 
I will let you guys know how it works good or bad. Btw, I have done erverthing except weekly water changes to get rid of PO4. Everything listed above I have tried. $300 in new lights, new RODI, new ballast, new phosban reactor. $150 in Rowa etc etc etc. I have all the liverock live sand etc.

So now I try sugar. Also the skimmer is suppose to add O2 to the tank to help the fish from being O2 starved. Does this make sense? Or do I have it wrong?
 
Doug,

The skimmer will help, but as it adds oxygen so the bacteria will pull it out by growing and metabolizing. Just be careful.....be very consistant and slow. Its kind of like a tightrope......one sudden change and all could crash.

P.
 
Lazyreefer, I'm rooting for you if you decide to do this. I would like to know the outcome. I'm crossing my fingers for the best! Good Luck. At least you know what can happen. I'm glad that you chose to ask about it and did some serious research before you tried it. I've seen many threads where people here about it and just try it and then crash their tank.
 
Otherwise, note to all - be EXTREMELY careful before you decide to try this out. In all honesty, I would recommend it to noone.
 
Tim,

You are right about a bloom. In my research that was a side effect. A bloom similar to cycling a new tank. I would love to get rid of diatom compared to green hair algae.

Also, anyone here speak german? Or does anyone know any german reefers? I wonder if they really do this?


Doug
 
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