SURGE bucket, that actually works!!!

[KingT420]

Crap, Crap and more crap. Every surge design I have seen does not work worth a dam. I have been messing with my surge buckets for the last 6 months. I have gone through every surge plan on the fricking internet and duplicated it, tweaked it, tweaked it some more, and then threw it away.

I thought Id share my experience building a reliable powerful surge bucket with the RC team, since I wrote this essay for another users surge problems. I will take some pics and add to my gallery. Maybe this could go in the DIY section?? Anybody???

To get a powerful surge, that was reliable and air free, what I did was, for each bucket was:

I took the flapper valve design, (most reliable starting and stopping of the surge) and have it actuated by a solenoid (the stupid lever design was just a nightmare) triggered by a float switch. There two float switches in each bucket.

Pump fills bucket, Top float switch triggers solenoid, valve opens, water level goes down, lower float switch triggers closure of the flapper.

What this accomplishes is, the PVC line running to the tank, NEVER empties out, it stays full of water all the time, solenoid closes the flapper before it would by itself (like on a toilet, or that OTHER design) So when the bucket fills, and the flapper opens, INSTANTLY with no AIR to speak of whatsoever, about 4 gallons of water empty into my tank in less than 3 seconds. Alternating buckets randomly (due to uneven fill rates)

I put a tee on the PVC line, that runs vertically up the wall a few feet with a cap on it, to provide a dead air space to soften the HIT of the Water Hammer that occurs when the flapper closes and tries to stop ~6 feet of water in a 1.25ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ PVC line. Before I did this, the water hammer would tear everything apart when the valve would close and when it didnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t it sounded like a gunshot in the garage.

Ok, a little more info, my tank is on a garage wall, on my 2 story house. So my surge buckets are in the garage on the wall 5ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ above the tank. The first few cycles of the buckets produce surges with lots of air, till the PVC line gets filled with water, but unless you break down the buckets, it never happens again, Oh one more thing was, I had to plug the built-in overflow of the flapper valve, to hold the water in the PVC column. So of course I had to put an overflow in each bucket to prevent disaster if a float switch fails or something.

This bucket design has been operational for the last 2 month with out fail. My surge pump turns on with my first light, and turns off with the last one. Along with my wave timer, I have pretty decent water movement that I am definitely happy with. I am still playing around with the location of the surge outlet and the surge volume, (being actuated by a float switch, which by the way is moveable, I can adjust the volume of the surge to be 4.5 gallons to barley 1. Right now I have it se to fill the buckets about Ã"šÃ‚¾ full, so about 3 to 3.5 gal each bucket)

Sorry for suck a long post, I hope this can alleviate some frustration with your surge design, Most people might say I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t want to mess with the electronics, but I find them to be IME, easier to tune, and to operate, with much better results.

I wish everybody luck, and donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t give up on those surges, there is nothing like them for water movement.

 

[kevin gu3]

I guess you reeeealy didn't like those bubbles!

 

[KingT420]

I feel like in this day of age, with technology and such, why should we have to put up with things not working like they should, I mean, we have calcium reactors, and temperature controlled fans, and chillers, and moon cycle timers, it is pretty silly to have some archaic surge bucket, that in essence does not provide what it was designed for in the first place. I know other people have had success with some other surge designs, but I think what you get should be a high quality surge. Not a half working, air filled bubble making splattering allover your lights mess that the fish are scared of. If it wasnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t for the chaotic movement in the tank, you cannot even tell it is surging. Also my surge 100% of the water pumped into the buckets is part of the surge, unlike the siphon, where it takes a decent amount of water to even start the surge, resulting in a 5 gallon surge bucket providing about 1-2 gallons of forceful movement.

Bubbles, were really the smallest problem with those other buckets (although I sought to eliminate them). Reliability and functionality were really my biggest concern. But as an added benefit, the surge without the bubbles, is much more forceful (5+ times) than the surge with all the air. The surge with air was kind of cool to look at in the tank, (although air does kill sponges, and can hurt other animals) I think my high head height probably contributed to my buckets having a high air content surge. If I had it to do all over again, I wouldnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t do anything different, aside from not mounting the buckets 11ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ up in the air. (Just for the sake of working on them) I REALY am happy with the way they turned out.

I spent about $150 on my various surge buckets, before I settled on this operational design. I feel it can be duplicated for less than $20 per bucket, less if you have PVC lying around. The solenoid was $5 for a Heavy Duty one from an electronic supply house. The float switches were $4 each from E-bay. No other circuitry needed, solenoids are run off my 3amp 12v power station I use for my Ice Caps, and my other float switches. I wired up the float switches so the top is NO and the bottom is NC, there is a small relay that holds the solenoid open till the lower float opens the circuit, causing the float to fall.


I would love to see some comments from people using other designs that successfully eliminated the air in the surge, and got them to be reliable and adjustable in function.

 

[kevin gu3]

$20 a bucket is much less than I thought.

I use a siphon surge, appealing because there are no moving parts and nothing to fail. Very reliable but there are those pesky bubbles. The bubble problem is mitigated somewhat by having the outspew right next to the overflow. The wastebasket (reservoir) is only 4 feet above the aquarium.

If I had my druthers all of the sump return would be going thru surge buckets instead of just part. I wouldn't trust my overflow to handle the occasional simultaneous surge from multiple buckets.

The thing about your setup that intrigues me is the solenoids; they offer the ability to have multiple buckets with none dumping simultaneously by firing off the solenoids one by one via some sort of controller rather than by bucket fill level. Do you know the brand/model or at least how much throw the solenoids have? I take it they are spring loaded. Graingers? Loud?

 

[KingT420]

The solenoids I used were the ones with the longest throw I could find, about 1ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ I got them at a surplus electronic store here in Sonoma County called HSC. They do Click quite loud, but I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t notice because they are 10+ feet away and on the other side of a wall.

They are not spring loaded, I just mounted them to the lid of the bucket, drilled a small hole in the lid, I mounted the solenoids so that the plunger can never fall out of the solenoid because of how high above the lid I mounted them. I started out with them pulling on a lever, to get the float to ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œpopââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ open far enough to stay open, but when I added the lower float switch I eliminated the lever, because they are held open by the solenoid now. The solenoid is attached to the float by a piece of 150# test fishing line.

Currently the surge buckets are filled unevenly by a mag 12 on the garage wall pulling water out of an overflow chamber (not the sump) (so the mag 12 does not have a 12ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ head) every little bit helps (my refuge is on the 2nd floor, with an direct overflow into the main tank, and it also has a mag 12 pulling out of the other overflow chamber) I found that this works much better than pumping water out of the sump up 12ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ to the buckets, or up 16ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ for my refuge. My return isa Mag 18 right now. Soon to switch to an iwaki 40 that I bought, then I might tee off to fill the buckets, and for the skimmer, maybe. I like the surge turning off at night, so thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s why I have a separate pump.
Your idea about controlling the surge with a controller is a great one, just rig the float switch to shut off the pump to that bucket when it gets full, or let it overflow.

Or make the overflow fill the other bucket before draining to the tank, (mine does that) one bucket fills, then the other (in any order) than the whole thing overflows to the tank if something fails.

I think the key here is the solenoid holding the flapper open, and closing it before it has a chance to suck air. I really like the float switch at the bottom, very failsafe way to eliminate air.

Some times they surge at the same time, my tank has no problem keeping up with the flow, I even filled both buckets, shut off refuge & surge pump and manually surged both at same time, water level rose about 1ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ and quickly fell. No prob on my 125 with all pumps running, a dual surge hardly raises the water a noticeable amount.

One thing I was thinking about was rewiring the buckets, so that if bucket #1 solenoid is open, bucket #2 has to wait to surge until bucket #1 is closed. It would take me about 10 min to wire it up that way, but I have just been too lazy, and it has been too hot in the garage, to get up on the ladder and fix it.

Bucket #1 surges about 1.5 times as much as bucket #2 due to fill rate, which I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t mind, but if I implement the idea above, (bucket override, like you mentioned so they donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t surge together) I will even out the flow between the buckets, then maybe I can get a 1-1 surge.

 

[KingT420]

>

 

[SaltwaterNovice]

King:

Kudos on an incredible modificatioin to the surge bucket design. Necessity really is the mother of invention.

Can you post some pics/diagrams/instructions for us mere mortals that seek to duplicate your design.

Thanks for sharing and keep up the good work!

Best,

Brian

 

[Scuba_Dave]

So, pics, plans, let's see it please!!

 

[KingT420]

I will post pics when I get home, I modified the solinoid design this weekend to include a lockout that prevents both buckets from dumping at the same time. I will post that schematic also.

 

[KingT420]

I just found one of the bucket solenoid design, as well as the float switch placement, maybe this will be a little clearer, one side is open, other is closed.

 

[RJARMAN]

KingT,

Can you post your wiring diagram so we can see how it is done, and some real pics of it. This is one nice design of a surge.

R.Nelson Jarman III

 

[MarkS]

It's a great design, but I would still prefer a Reverse Carlson Surge Device (RCSD). For me, it's a trade off of piece of mind or bubbles and sound.

What happens if one of the switches or the solenoid breaks or gets stuck? At least with the RCSD you know nothing bad will happen if the air pump goes out.

 

[Pyrojon]

You don't need to worry about bad things if you design it properly. Due to the design of my surge it has a toilet flapper, backed up by a carlson surge device, backed up by an overflow. There have actually been a couple times where the flapper did not trip, the carlson did not start siphoning and the water just ran down the overflow.

My surge design has been running since January with not a single unplanned stop for at least the last 3 months. Took me a little while to get things situated exactly right where it would hang up once or twice a week, but once I got it right it runs like a champ forever and ever.

 

[Teo]

great design, I do feel an emergency overflow in the top of each bucket would be a good idea.

now if you put the top float switches on a device that slowly moves them up and down you could get quicker, gentler surges and then raise slowly to build up to a longer, stronger surge. do this two to three times a day to simulate the tides. just an idea.
thanks for sharing a great design.

 

[leykis1o1]

out of all the surge "bucket" devices ive seen or diagrams yours makes more sense!! what is the brand solonoid do you use....does the solonoid make much noise? maybe it could be replaced with "muscle wire" ..... what brand float switches do you use? pipe size? what size pump do you use or gallons per hour? ...awesome thanks!!

 

[leykis1o1]

ok im a idiot i fgot so excited by your diagram i failed to even read one post.....but wht do you think about using "muscle wire"

 

[melev]

That looks really good, and I'm impressed! :thumbsup:

 

[Pyrojon]

Muscle wire would probably not work too well. It doesn't shrink by a significant ammount when activated, just a couple percent if I remember correctly. It also is not super strong, though I suppose you could use several strands to get strength. Cost in that case would probably be prohibative. It also take a great deal of current to activate it, something you don't want to have in water.

 

[KingT420]

sorry for the delay in responding. Been really busy.

sorry for the delay in responding. Been really busy.

Hey all,

leykis1o1
I dont think that wire would work, with the buckets full, it takes quite alot of effort to open the flapper, The solinoids are preaty heavy duty, with about a 1/2" dia shaft and a large coil.

RJARMAN
I do have a wiring diagram, at home, I'll post it when I get there.
The solenoids are wired through a pair of relays that only allows one bucket to dump at a time. If they both go off at the same time, only one dumps, and when it is done, the other dumps.

I will take some pics this weekend, I have to move the convert out-o the garage.

You guys are going to laugh.. Seriously. My garage is the ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œfish roomââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ and I still have to fit my baby in there, so it is a little crowded.


Teo
Oh yah, there is an overflow, just not in the diagram. I actually ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œteeââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ into the upstairs refuge return line, 1-1/2ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚. I know it is small, but my surge pump only flows about 400gph at the 14ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ head it pushes.

The movable top float is already a reality, (at least by me). I have them set at about 2-1/2 ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ 3 gallon surge. I might try and hook it up to a stepper motor, or something, but I need to figure out my whole controller setup first. Right now the thing just runs off a timer, on just after first light, off after dusk.

Pyrojon
Now thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s how to protect yourself. I dig it.

MarkS
I was never able to get the Carlson to work for me. It is all a balance of flow from the pump, and the size and shape of your siphon. I stopped fooling around with that one after I realized I would have to buy a BIG$$$$ pump to fill the buckets quickly.

I have absolute confidence in this design. Electronics are minimal, and I have taken the (IMO) proper safety precautions regarding overflow/malfunction etcââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦.
If one solenoid goes out, that bucket stops surging, overflows into the other bucket (either way) and (if #2 is still functional) surges. (twice as fast of course) or if they both go out at the same time (will never happen, maybe an electronics malfunction lets say) after both the buckets are full, they overflow back into the tank, and they just sit up on the wall full. Continually overflowing along with the upstairs refuge return.
I do not employ an air pump, and honestly I am not familiar with the RCSD, but I am not going back to the drawing board now.

This design is not for everyone, you basically need a dedicated fish room, I guess you could duplicate one to fit in a LARGE canopy, but that really wouldnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t be much of a surge. For what I wanted, I feel like this was the only way to go.

 

[KingT420]

leykis1o1
The pump, is now an old "Quiet One" I estimate about 400 gph (or less) at its high head. (the pump gets quite warm) I am currently looking for a better solution to my whole pumping nightmare. I think I am going to build another garage, and completely take over the one my car is in now. My sump is really the limiting factor now. (not drilled 40gal stock tank)

I glued (jb weld) a 1-1/4" PVC coupler into the bottom of the flapper unit that screws into the bottom of the bucket. From there I have about a 6-7' diagonal drop (to allow 45 degree elbows, not 90's) then through the wall into a 1-1/2" adapter and then a mess of Black PVC "Street L's" to direct the surge. (black only comes in 1-1/2ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚) if I had to redo it, I would up the size of everything to 1-1/2ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ just for the $%*& of it.

There is also a "T" just below the bucket connection that runs up to the top of the bucket and has a cap on it. This prevents the "Water Hammer" from destroying everything.

When you try to stop 8' x 1.25" of a fast moving water column, something is going to give. I learned this the hard way, when my surge was first successful; the first few surges tore the PVC apart and made a huge mess. Nothing was glued at that point, but the power of water is not to be underestimated. I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t think you could have this design work without the dead air space to act like a cushion from the water hammer.