surge device (no bubbles) mystery....

R

reefdiy

New member
Does anyone have any ideas on how this works?

Surge Device - No Bubbles (Youtube Video)

I sure would love to build one!

One of the comments hints at a bell siphon, but after researching them I am not sure how a air pump could control it so it has no bubbles.
Bell Siphon (PDF Instructions)

On another video the poster said: "It works by using air to control the valve timing."

valve timing.....I guess that means there is some type of valve used.....

I will have to think on this one!
 
its been my understanding in researching them as well that the bubbles actually help clean the corals
i was just at the GA aquarium this weekend (the biggest on in the world) they have 2 whale sharks and the biggest captive reef also they used a surge tank on the reef and boy did it bubble u almost couldnt see things at times i figure if the aquarium with the largest living reef isnt worried about it not bubbling then there has to be a good reason for it
 
j.p. harrington said:
its been my understanding in researching them as well that the bubbles actually help clean the corals
i was just at the GA aquarium this weekend (the biggest on in the world) they have 2 whale sharks and the biggest captive reef also they used a surge tank on the reef and boy did it bubble u almost couldnt see things at times i figure if the aquarium with the largest living reef isnt worried about it not bubbling then there has to be a good reason for it
Click to expand...

I thought it was the rapid flow that cleans and the bubbles irritate some fish. A tide pool setup should do well. A sponge tank, not so well. Personally I like to see the tank instead of bubbles and the spray is a nuisance. A few bubbles add interest though.
 
The right pipe is the input from the sump pump below.

The next pipe to the left is an emergency overflow.

The next pipe to left is the #1 drain with a vent.

The next one to the left is the #2 drain without a vent.

Both are apparently valves controlled by air.

I don't seem to have any sound when I play that movie. Does anyone else have sound?
 
No sound here, either. Makes ya wonder.

The two lines that appear to be going from the controller down to the valves - are those actually airlines, or rods of some sort? Given the cost of large reef-safe valves, I wonder if they're rods actuated by a small air solenoid that are just actuating a simple mechanical valve (even just a toilet flapper valve)?

It seems like the controller is actuating the valves on a predefined interval. Wonder if that's truly better than having something level-based?
 
Pretty interesting. When I crank the volume all the way up and hold my ears close to my laptop speakers, I can hear the normal sound of the water in the sump, but not the water flow from the surge. Wonder if the guy is trying to patent the design or something...
 
I don't see how you could do straight time based and get away with it. There must be at least one level sensor somewhere.

I've worked with a lot of valves that use air or water to move the diaphragm, your choice. Could be he's found some that are plastic. I'd still expect some unsavory hissing air solenoid sounds.
 
I have spent a couple days thinking about this and bouncing ideas off a buddy.

Here is what I have been able to come up with:

I don't think all of the pipes are necessary and are probably leftovers from experimenting. I bet you need penetrations for filling, emergency overflow and normal drain.

The heart of the device is essentially a dump valve. Basically a hollow disc with a pressure source that vents to water pressure and is allowed to translate axially within a cylinder. The cylinder would have top stops and bottom stops that restrict the travel of the disc and a flow path for water when the disc is in the uppermost position. A pressure source (aquarium air pump) would fill the hollow space in the disc with air making it bouyant, it then floats and opens the dump valve. After a given period of time, the air source is removed, the space vents and refills with water and the disc sinks, shutting the valve.

It might be a little leaky, but I don't think that matters if the filling pump adds water much much greater than the leak rate.

I think a dump valve could easily be made from PVC parts.

kress, I think you could easily make it work with level sensors as well, but with the safety overflows, I don't think it is needed.

Looks like I have some experimenting to do.
 
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Yah. Have at it. Not sure I see how your description works without air being injected into the water somewhere.


If you have to the ability to machine some plastic you could try this..

You could do this with some Delrin or other plastic. Just make a lever actuated spool valve. Work the lever electrically or mechanically with a little motor. Skip the giant hassle and inevitable noise of air all together. As you say a small leak would be no problem so your valve wouldn't have to have tight tolerances. Since it would be underwater anyway it could have body leaks that wouldn't matter either.

You could do a linear spool valve with a lever OR you could do a rotary valve sort of like an Ocean's Motions type but only for a single port. This is the type where when one hole lines up with another the water flows. When they don't align the flow is blocked. The nice part about these is that they can ramp the flow up and down which is less stress on everything and prevents shocks that lead to noise.

You'd need a lathe probably..
 
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It appears as though the air line leads into the drain pipe (in the rear left corner), and it doesn't appear that there are any moving parts.

My thought was that the dump valve could be a bladder that fills with air and when expanded creates a seal with the drain allowing the tank to fill, and when it comes time to dump the tank a vacuum quickly removes the air inside the bladder, or the pressure from the water does so, allowing the water to pass through the drain.
 
The air would vent back out the same place it goes in, control could either be through solenoid valves, or (since I prefer non-moving and failure resistent simplicity) through a restrictor or throttle valve that bleeds off the pressure when the air pump is not on.

I'll throw a drawing together.

I thought about the rotary valve idea too, it could definitely do it. I actually had a wavemaking device that I set up like that 10 years back. Perhaps I never figured it completely out, but dealing with the seals was a pain.
 
Yup, I'm dragging this thread up again! I had to....

Note what looks to be a floating PVC pipe inside of an acrylic tube in the top aquarium:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zAVyigKdgo

*This video was posted by the same YouTube user. He is also the user on 3Reef known was RL668. I've read his comments there and in other places.

Hopefully someone finds this useful in a continued discussion.

Cheers,
 
Looks to me like the timer opens up the drain. The upright pipes are to keep it from overflowing if the drain fails and the J shaped pipe is always pushing water to the tank. Don't know what the timer is hooked up to to open the drain.
 
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