Tinyfish's 20g sea grass tank

[tinyfish]

NO3 = 0, yes zero
This is a little shocking to me as I feed every day.
Alk = 2.17
Ca= 500
Temp= 75
Salinity=1.027

I am wondering about the purchase of a 3000k bulb. This range gives tremendous growth in freshwater plants and I am curious if it will help the sea grass as well.

And I put some fertilizer spikes in next to the plants. I dislike the idea of introducing NO3 directly but don't know what else to do.

 

[3D-Reef]

IMO-I would increase the time too ~10-12 hrs a day.I have Mine on for about 15 hrs at full intensity,~18 hrs average including the dusk and dawn lights.

I would also increase the pH too ~7.9-8.1.One study I came across said that Thalassia and Halodule grows the best at ~8.1,and growth slowed at 8.4pH,growth at 8.6pH stopped altogether.On the other hand,Halophilla and one other grass that I can't recall at the moment,grew best at 8.6 pH.Weird I know!:spin2:

The temp needs to come up for sure,say 79-82 degrees.The lower limit of turtlegrass is 72,and it is very slow growing at 75.

 

[Amphiprion]

Probably wouldn't hurt to raise alkalinity a bit, either, since it is a major source of inorganic carbon. I'd shoot for around NSW for grasses, which is about 2.5 mEq/L or 7 dKH. I'd also recommend the temperature increase. My tank usually never falls below 81 degrees and more realistically runs between that and 85 degrees with a fan installed.

 

[AuroraDrvr]

Agreed on the temperature increases. I have noticed temps on seagrass flats can get into the 85-88ºF range in the shallow spots. Most everywhere else it hovers at 80ºF. This is during the summer, when days are long and the grasses are growing.

 

[tinyfish]

Thanks for the info. I will raise temp and alk and increase light cycle duration.

How long before I see better results? Nevermind I will just report back when something changes.

 

[jadeguppy]

I went to the seagrass talk at MACNA this year and he mentioned that new grasses may lose their blades shortly after being planted. They then concentrate on putting out roots. After a good root system is established they send blades up again. If the tubers on the turtle grass still feel firm, your grass is probably just going through this adjustment.

 

[DBrinson]

10 lbs of Miracle Mud means you won't need to fertilize the substrate at any time in the near future. Maybe the next decade. Don't attempt it. Please.

(Excellent move putting Miracle Mud down by the way, I have had outstanding results time and again using this product as a seagrass substrate)

Lighting, don't sweat it, really. Higher light is like fast forwarding your seagrass, it can withstand low light and heat conditions but it grows very quickly when under intense 6500K light. If you have patience to keep it cooler and dimmer, it won't hurt your grass any.

Your seagrass will drop all of its original leaves within three months, by then you should see new shoots. I have new shoots sprouting from my planted seagrass two weeks after planting, granted I planted seagrass with fully developed roots and use MH 6500K lights in 80° water with a 10 hour photocycle.

jadeguppy, I would have loved to have been at that talk. Firm tubers considered a plus eh? I wonder if they consider grass that is in high current weak? In the wild, high current areas are hosts to the fastest spreading Thalassia on the Gulf Coast, as flimsy as the blades become in the current, it thrives, and even spreads faster under such conditions.

Oh well, maybe next year.

 

[tinyfish]

So, it is as I had begun to fear. My tank is on its 4th month and I see no new shoots. Since I can't see the roots I guess all I can do is wait now with the above mentioned changes.

 

[DBrinson]

So, it is as I had begun to fear. My tank is on its 4th month and I see no new shoots. Since I can't see the roots I guess all I can do is wait now with the above mentioned changes.

I am assuming you bought drift grass from an online vendor?

Most of that is DOA ... it's not your fault or theirs.

It's seagrass that is stripped of most/all of its roots and the hitchhikers which live in its roots. The nitrogen-fixing organisms in the roots of seagrass are as important to the plant's survival as the xooanthellae living in the polyps of corals. (To say nothing of the tiny grazers which clean the blades of algae.)

 

[tinyfish]

Parameters as of 2/5/2011
Salinity = 1.024 a little low for some reason
Ph = 8.0
Alk =2.17 (I don't know why this is so low)
Ca = 440
Mg = 1230
Iodide > .10
Iodate =.03
Sr = 0
Nitrate = 0

Even after inserting the fertilizer spikes my nitrates are zero. I have been maintaining temperature at 80-81F.

Livestock update:
4 masked gobies
3 blue porcelain crabs
1 Potter's angel
0 snails (There is no algae to speak of maybe due to lack of nutrients.)

I have not poked the substrate with a stick as mentioned earlier in my thread.

I do still have about 10 sprigs of shoal grass and 2 sprigs of turtle grass.

I changed over to the 150w MH about a month ago or at last update and then yesterday I got a VHO fixture hung to supplement for color. 4x110w.
The colors look great now. Grass is a nice green color just no new sprouts.

I don't know whether I should try another fertilizer like bone meal or Osmocote that is slow to release and low numbers. Suggestions? I might make my own fertilizer spikes using bone meal or Osmocote.

 

[tinyfish]

 

[Vang025]

I don't know if this applies to saltwater plants but you can try dosing CO2. Works great for planted tanks.

 

[tinyfish]

Sorry about all the coral pictures in a sea grass tank. I was just trying out the coral to see about the color rendition of the MH and VHO lamps.

I continued to see no development of new sprigs so I have purchased some Flourish products: Excel, potassium, iron, and nitrogen. I started dosing these on 2/07/11. The only test kit I have for any of these is for nitrate which was testing at zero before dosing.

After the first week I checked nitrate and it was 2. I went ahead and dosed that once again for the next week.

Does anyone know of test kits for potassium and iron?

 

[3D-Reef]

korallen-zucht.de from Germany makes a potassium test kit,it's a little hard too read though.[URL="http://www.korallen-zucht.de/en/shop/products--technology/water-test-kits/165_potassium-test-kit.html[/URL]
Testing for iron you'll need a high end test kit,like Lamotte or Hatch,because the lower cost kits won't read that low.(ie.Seachem)

Because of all the mud You used,IMO You won't be able to get much of a reading for nitrate.Mud is an excellent substrate for bacterial activity and those microbes are in direct competition with the grass for ammonium.

In a regular DSB the nitrifying-denitrifying microbes are tightly coupled.They are within microns of each other.So the normal cycle,urea>ammonium>nitrite>nitrate>nitrogen,applies. However,in a seagrass bed,this "coupling", is marginal due to the plants supporting capabilities too all the different bacteria's.(ie.C,N,P,Fe and S,cycles) So nitrate/nitrogen(N2) is Not always the end pathway.Some of it (No3) is demineralized back into nitrite>ammonium,and the plants can use it for up-take.The plants themselves,also,demineralize No3 as well.

IMO If it was nitrate limited the sand bed would be turning black and the grasses would be dieing off instead of hanging in there.I think the shoalgrass would be the first too show signs of new growth being a colonizer grass and the turtle grass...well it's a very slow plant too recover from transplanting.
In the ocean it can take up too 4-7 yrs for turtlegrass to form new apical meristems (growing tips) once the rhizomes has been severed.
Single shoots have a very poor survival rate.Double shoots,on the same rhizome,stand a much better chance and quad shoots have the highest recovery rate.
IMO You should already have enough nutrients in there.You might try putting in some more fish (for the ammonia),but other than that,I wouldn't add any more just too get a reading.I think Your best bet is to wait for the bed too become more established.FWIW-These microbes are a type of cyanobacteria that can use N2 for their N requirements as well.

As far as adding organic carbon,be careful.Any signs of the sand turning black and you'll want too stop dosing it,and do a water change or add nitrate or both.

 

[Amphiprion]

If the iron is added sparingly, I doubt you'll need to test for it (besides the fact that it is depleted extremely fast, even without plants). Seachem does make a test for it, though. I dose KNO[sub]3[/sub], but have yet to see the need to test, especially if you change the water on a reasonably regular basis. There's usually a large enough sink for potassium that the small additions along with nitrate shouldn't be an issue.

 

[tinyfish]

How awkward it seems that my sand bed is working too well. The last time I tried sea grass the sand bed did indeed turn black and everything died, but I was not dosing. So far I see nothing but the ordinary 10 sprigs which is of course down from 40 when started.

I keep a close eye on everything to see if new growth will occur.

 

[tinyfish]

Time for an update. The bad news is that I used a new Nano A & B part to dose and killed the Potter's Angel, one Masked Goby, and one Blue Porcelain Crab. That is heartbreaking.

I have since transferred the one last goby and two crabs to another tank. I also transferred 80% of the coral along with all the live rock.

One observation is that the grass sprigs that were planted independently are doing the best. I believe those sprigs are twice the height of the sprigs planted as a bunch. The sand bed continues to look healthy and has worms and amphipods.

The turtle grass has the two sprigs mentioned but I believe they are on the same rhizome. The sprigs of the shoal grass also are three to a rhizome. That means I actually only have about 3-4 rhizomes of the shoal grass. The turtle grass sprig that is new is growing well.

I continue to dose the Excel and the Nitrogen and the Nitrate continues to remain at 2. The plant's colors are good so I have stopped on dosing iron and potassium.

I also added the Koralia Nano for flow and put a black background sheet on the back. I moved the Koralia 1 to a new position to produce a gyre.

I will post a new picture soon.

 

[tinyfish]

I decided to change more things. I put an MJ900 on the BakPak skimmer and removed the Koralia Nano. I have also added a small power filter with carbon.

And I did a 50% water change.

Only inhabitants are 2 nerite snails as of today.

 

[3D-Reef]

Sorry to hear about Your losses!:sad2:

From Your last few posts it sounds encouraging.Maybe things are starting to turn around for You.

 

[tinyfish]

I am running a powerfilter with carbon now. The water clarity is significant. The pump on the skimmer is too big, hence the bubbles. I have since removed the boxes on the right rear as they detract terribly from the aesthetics.

When I learn to do the White Balance correctly I will take another better picture.