To KALK or not to KALK?

[jerpa]

The trouble happened on July 27 when a 32oz of buffer solution got dumped in a 12 hour period in the tank. The dKH skyrocketed to 15. At this point I started my second gallon of KALK+2. Now keep in mind, I believe what KALK does is maintain your tanks parameters. The water for my water changes was Oceanic salt, not my usual Red Sea Coral PRO

Unless I read this wrong this implies the alk jumped drastically in one day. Alk swinga of this magnitude wreak havoc on corals. Often the results don't show immediately however. It can take several weeks before the damage shows up. In order for the calcium to drop after adding this much alkalinity there must have been precipitation whether you saw it or not.

The changes I note and try to do happen over 2 weeks, not one day.

With changes as drastic as you have described, there can be damage even if it happened over two weeks.

 

[likefish]

what "zones" are you referring to?

A link would be appreciated. Still cutting my teeth on stability with water chemisty. Managing mine through water changes. Poorly!

 

[jerpa]

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/11/chemistry

That's the article he is referring to. The chemistry in our aquariums may be the most misunderstood aspect of this hobby. The misinformation from manufacturers coupled with a lack of understanding by the hobbyists make it a pretty rampant problem. If you google Randy Holmes-Farley you will find a plethora of information.

 

[MetroKat]

Unless I read this wrong this implies the alk jumped drastically in one day. Alk swinga of this magnitude wreak havoc on corals. Often the results don't show immediately however. It can take several weeks before the damage shows up. In order for the calcium to drop after adding this much alkalinity there must have been precipitation whether you saw it or not.

With changes as drastic as you have described, there can be damage even if it happened over two weeks.

Good point. After 5-6 weeks of this incident, some corals are displaying problems, while others are doing just fine. The point to note is that they started getting ****ed off when KALK was added (10 days ago), and not before.

 

[MetroKat]

what "zones" are you referring to?
A link would be appreciated. Still cutting my teeth on stability with water chemisty. Managing mine through water changes. Poorly!

See below, the link to advanced aquarist. Sorry for not posting.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/11/chemistry

That's the article he is referring to. The chemistry in our aquariums may be the most misunderstood aspect of this hobby. The misinformation from manufacturers coupled with a lack of understanding by the hobbyists make it a pretty rampant problem. If you google Randy Holmes-Farley you will find a plethora of information.

I'm a girl actually. :bounce2:
Yes, people add buffers like mad (myself included) when baked baking soda would work just the same way. Randy says he doesn't like buffers with Borate so I founf the one and only borate free buffer available in the market: by Contiuum Aquatics.

In your pics the brain looks like it as been moved.

No, different camera angle.

 

[tmz]

Forget the zones for practical applications. They are meant to illustrate realtionships between alk and calc. There is no need for precise balances beyond keeping alk , calcium and magnesium within the accepted range for each.
Calicum at 20ppm plus alk at 50ppm is the balanced dose and the same proprtions at which carbonate alkinity and calcium are used in calcification. So dosing should follow those propoetions.

Dosing buffers without a balanced amount of calcium except for one time adjustments is not a good thing to do. Dosing buffers "like mad" will ruin a tank. Continuous dosing of buffers without balanced calcium will make the tank unstable .

Excess borate in some products designed mostly for fish only applications is an issue because the borate alkalinity is not carbonate alkalinity and is useless for calcification. Borate free is not necessary or useful ; the alkainity of seawater is about 2.9% borate.

 

[tmz]

Hey TMZ! Thanks for the response.

My KALK dosage details were in my original post. I do not believe 1 to 1.5 Gallons of KALK (mixed at 3tsp per 2G) dumped in 24 hours into a 45-50G system is over dosing KALK, what do you think?

My corals are ****ed off. However they aren't because the levels are bouncing all over the place. If anything they are completely steady. Again, this is in my original post. The changes I note and try to do happen over 2 weeks, not one day. Even when the 32oz of buffer got added to the tank by error, the level of DKH jumped (and the corals were SO happy for some reason) but then steadily declined over the next several days.

Sounds like the levels are unstable and stresful to me. but it's your tank.The dosing practices noted are scary.

3 tsps of kalk( calcium hydroxide) on top of a dkh of 15k is too much. I would not dose any when alk was that high.

As top off the 3 tsps should not be dosed at more than 1/4tsp in any given hour for a 50 gallon system( So 3 tsps mixed in 1.5 gallons shuld be dosed over at least 12 hours) to allow Co2 to re enter the water via gas exchange with lthe air and in so doing minimize the chance of a ph spike. Dosing it when dkh and/ or ph is already high from buffer dosing will cause precipitation and very high ph. These things will stress oreven kill corals .


Do incremental water changes to establish a level for calcium and alk within respective ranges. (The mag at 1500 is ok and will decline overtime but very slowly unless you do water changes with a high magnesium salt mix.).

Measure alk every day or two to determine how much is being used in your tank. Calcium consumtion use will follow along at 20ppm fo revery 50ppm of alk( ie 2.8 dkh).

Establish a dosing regime with kalk( as noted it contains alk and calcium in the exact balanced proportions in whichthey are used) . It should be enough for your tank without any buffers or additional calcium. If it's not you can add small amounts of balanced alk and calcium.

 

[Hypsophrys]

YES! YES! YES! (I would still really appreciate Randy Holmes Farley to take a read through this in case I missed something)

So for the record, I stopped KALK 3 days ago and have only been dosing Part A, Hyp, per your suggestion yesterday I started dosing Part B albeit in a smaller dose than A.

I've got a 10% water change mix on the ready for today.
Water has been mixing since last night with 30TDS RODI water (yes I know, I'm working on the 30 tds too):
1.025
Calc 500
dkh 9.3

Sounds good. tmz's advice right above is also very good. I recommend against regular use of alk/pH-only buffers (including baking soda/soda ash) also.

 

[MetroKat]

Because pictures speak louder than words

Before KALK

With KALK

Today, 48 hours after stopping KALK

 

[MetroKat]

TMZ, I'm sorry for the confusion. See my reply below

3 tsps of kalk( calcium hydroxide) on top of a dkh of 15k is too much. I would not dose any when alk was that high.

dkh of 15 happened on July 27
KALK was started Aug 25th - 4 weeks later
My corals are ****ed off after adding KALK, the pictures in the previous post was taken Sept 2nd or 3rd - 10 days into the KALK regimen.

As top off the 3 tsps should not be dosed at more than 1/4tsp in any given hour for a 50 gallon system( So 3 tsps mixed in 1.5 gallons shuld be dosed over at least 12 hours)

You are right. My dosage was 3tsp in 2 G of water, my system uses 1-1.5G every day so in 24 hours about 1.5 tsp of KALK solution was being dosed. Well within suggested guidelines.

The game plan right now is to do water changes and more water changes till the Calcium and Alk in the tank are back to my normal Zone 4. I suspect this means 2 weeks of frequent water changes.

After that, depending on the rate of depletion of these 2 in the tank, I have to consider KALK, perhaps starting off with only 1 tsp in 2Gallons. But we will get to that when I have maintained my frequent water changes.

And thank you, so much, for your guidance. I really appreciate it.

 

[MetroKat]

Eventually, I hope to see my Pink Bird back to this:

 

[jerpa]

Do you have any way to test the PH of your system? If it is already high then Kalk may be contributing to a PH problem that already exists from the constant use of buffers. I agree I would do water changes and once your levels are in line begin testing alk daily, or every few days. Once you know how much your tank is consuming you can begin dosing again. I would use kalk if PH is not a problem and a balanced two part, if your PH is too high. Dose based on your alk measurement only. If you use a balanced dosing system calcium will stay in line and can be tested pretty infrequently.

My WA guess is that one of the buffers you have been using is either masking your true alkalinity numbers or your PH is so high that the Kalk is increasing it to a point where it causes harm to your livestock.

Happy Reefing ma'am. Sorry about that.

 

[MetroKat]

Do you have any way to test the PH of your system? If it is already high then Kalk may be contributing to a PH problem that already exists from the constant use of buffers. I agree I would do water changes and once your levels are in line begin testing alk daily, or every few days. Once you know how much your tank is consuming you can begin dosing again. I would use kalk if PH is not a problem and a balanced two part, if your PH is too high. Dose based on your alk measurement only. If you use a balanced dosing system calcium will stay in line and can be tested pretty infrequently.

My WA guess is that one of the buffers you have been using is either masking your true alkalinity numbers or your PH is so high that the Kalk is increasing it to a point where it causes harm to your livestock.

Happy Reefing ma'am. Sorry about that.

Hi there, thanks for being here. PH is 8.3. It has not tested significantly different at any time.

I know I've posted a lot of information but if there was anything constantly being dosed in the system, it was KALK (and only in the last 10 days) because it was in the ATO. I have never constantly dosed buffers. When the 32oz dump happened via the drip back on July 27th: That was end of the usage of buffers. I let the tank sit and did nothing for 4 weeks before I began KALK. I began KALK when Calcium showed up to be 250! and dkh was 6.1! (I was dosing no Cal/alk supplements in between July 27 and Aug 25). Not buffer, not 2 part, nothing.

 

[Spirofucci]

Hi there Miss! Welcome to RC! I hope you find answers to all your chemical questions!

 

[MetroKat]

Hi there Miss! Welcome to RC! I hope you find answers to all your chemical questions!

I don't believe this! Is everybody on here?! You've all been keeping the best secrets to yourself eh? tsk tsk.

 

[Hypsophrys]

TMZ, I'm sorry for the confusion. See my reply below
The game plan right now is to do water changes and more water changes till the Calcium and Alk in the tank are back to my normal Zone 4. I suspect this means 2 weeks of frequent water changes.

After that, depending on the rate of depletion of these 2 in the tank, I have to consider KALK, perhaps starting off with only 1 tsp in 2Gallons. But we will get to that when I have maintained my frequent water changes.

And thank you, so much, for your guidance. I really appreciate it.

Kat, one thing. I really don't think zone 4 is your normal. Your freshly mixed saltwater is in the balanced area (none of the zones). That is what you should see at the end of the WC regimen - don't stop until you do.

 

[MetroKat]

Kat, one thing. I really don't think zone 4 is your normal. Your freshly mixed saltwater is in the balanced area (none of the zones). That is what you should see at the end of the WC regimen - don't stop until you do.

You may be right. I have to make sure to change the water frequently and test for calc and alk daily also.

Thank you.

 

[MetroKat]

Update: did a 10% waterchange. Will test levels in the morning.
Open brain is mostly fluffy again. Yay.

 

[Nano sapiens]

This is too funny. Kat comes over to RC and in no time much of the gang from NR follows. Stalkers! :uhoh2:

Keep up the testing. I know that you have been having a difficult time raising cal, so if it doesn't rise as is expected in a few weeks (or worse, doesn't rise at all), I have a theory all ready to test for that scenerio

 

[tmz]

welcome,

Please forget the zones. Just get the 3 majors. Alk, Calicum and mag in recommended ranges and develop a dosing plan based on a balanced alk and calcium dose( calcium hydroxide- aka/kalk, calcium chloride plus carbonate- aka/2part , a calcium reactor or combinations to keep them stable. FWIW my personal preference is kalk due to it's relative purity and ph raising effect. I also dose a little two part( baked baking soda and calcium chloride) but my system is densly packed with growing sps. I run ph 8.15 to 8.35, alk 9.3 dkh , calcium 450 to 470ppm, mag around 1450ppm, sg 1.026.