Water changes or not

I am still trying to uderstand where the heavy metals came from. It didn't happen own its own.


If I wanted to sell salt and other supplements that are not pure I would recommend a water change, however the numbers are what the are and only removing toxins' and adding what has been uptake is needed. You can spend money and go round and round. Prove me I am wrong and do some assay for support. I will be looking forward to the data.
.

If a tank is 150 gal and there is 20 percent water change what do you expect the outcome of the titration is in tds and components that you believe will be reduced? I just want the number so everybody knows. My determination isnt much.
 
If I wanted to sell salt and other supplements that are not pure I would recommend a water change, however the numbers are what the are and only removing toxins’ and adding what has been uptake is needed. You can spend money and go round and round. Prove me I am wrong and do some assay for support. I will be looking forward to the data.

If you read my article, you will see data on what is added in various ways. :)
 
If a tank is 150 gal and there is 20 percent water change what do you expect the outcome of the titration is?

Uh, what? The numbers are what they are, as you like to say. A 20% water change will drop copper in that tank by up to 20%, assuming the tank water is elevated relative to the salt mix you start with. I KNOW that my tank water is elevated in copper relative to my starting salt mix, at least when I carefully tested both, so I know that a water change lowers copper in my system. :)
 
If I wanted to sell salt and other supplements that are not pure I would recommend a water change, however the numbers are what the are and only removing toxins’ and adding what has been uptake is needed. You can spend money and go round and round. Prove me I am wrong and do some assay for support. I will be looking forward to the data.

If you read my article, you will see data on what is added in various ways. :)

First copper should never be used in a reef tank It is clinically wrong. What needs to be uptaked and what is required to be exported is needed. A water change would not resolve any issues. All the levels need to be correct adding supplements may have an adverse problem do the the fact they are not pure and could cause more problems if that is the case.
 
Last edited:
Clinically wrong?

Not sure what you mean by clinically.

I assure you it is chemically correct. :)

FWIW, I have other matters to address (like sleeping), so I will have to suspend my end of the discussion until tomorrow. I don't want you to think I'm ignoring your input. :)
 
Clinically wrong?

Not sure what you mean by clinically.

I assure you it is chemically correct. :)

FWIW, I have other matters to address (like sleeping), so I will have to suspend my end of the discussion until tomorrow. I don't want you to think I'm ignoring your input. :)

clinically

Look it up. Where did you get you degree? The fact is what needs to be exported and what need to be uptaked is what is required. Spending for water changes doesn't do it. I sill want to know where you recieved you degree as a expert.
 
Last edited:
There is nothing added to my tanks that requires the water to be changed. It is the fish and corals and other organics that require water changes. You say your levels are good- are you running a chromo or spectro on your water- or just testing certain parameters? Just because you are testing 20 diffrent parameters, doesn`t mean the ones you are not testing for do not exist. How are you testing for hormones? How are you testing for the unknowns that cause fish illnesses like LLE/HE? What waterborn bacterias are you testing for? What are all of your metal readings? Its quite easy for you to prove your point if you just provide the data from your tank now and then after doing a water change. Just get a proper lab to run the tests.

What hormones should we be looking at.
 
clinically

Look it up. Where did you get you degree?


You sure you want to go down that road? But I'll go if you go. :D

I got my BA in a double major of chemistry and biology from Cornell University. I got my PhD in chemistry from Harvard University.

I am VERY familiar with the word clinically, as I have invented several pharmaceuticals that were tested clinically and are used clinically in people. As in medical clinics, clinical trials, etc.

What I fail to see is what the word clinically has to do with water changes in an aquarium.

I sill want to know where you recieved you degree as a expert.

Beyond my degrees, and some additional course work in the chemistry of natural waters, I have self-taught myself marine chemistry, sufficient to have authored dozens of articles for reef hobbyists on the chemistry in their reef aquaria. They are listed here with links:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102605
 
But remember- fishy has experience too- he has one aquarium that han`t had a water change in a year. Freshwater experience is limited to the creek that flows under his bridge.
 
clinically

Look it up. Where did you get you degree?


You sure you want to go down that road? But I'll go if you go. :D

I got my BA in a double major of chemistry and biology from Cornell University. I got my PhD in chemistry from Harvard University.

I am VERY familiar with the word clinically, as I have invented several pharmaceuticals that were tested clinically and are used clinically in people. As in medical clinics, clinical trials, etc.

What I fail to see is what the word clinically has to do with water changes in an aquarium.

I sill want to know where you recieved you degree as a expert.

Beyond my degrees, and some additional course work in the chemistry of natural waters, I have self-taught myself marine chemistry, sufficient to have authored dozens of articles for reef hobbyists on the chemistry in their reef aquaria. They are listed here with links:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102605

I have been involved in many 510k trials. The word Clinically is in reference to the inhabitants and the observation there of. I didn't miss type.

The point being removing water and replacing it a 20% every week or month does not reduce toxins only to a small degree. Adding off the shelf supplements without knowning the purity is a unknown of what components that you don't want to introduce back in to the tank and would require that be removed again. There are ways around doing water changes that would leave the tank more stable.

I will concur that some foods may contain phoshates and should be tested prior to feeding.
 
Last edited:
Randy, thanks for your patience and volunteering your time to help us comprehend the chemical aspects of this hobby. Jim
 
What does this matter? You don't want to do water changes, we get it. If you're trying to convince people that do water changes to stop doing them, It's not going to happen. We see too many benefits in doing them than not. Although I can't you what it removes or adds, if anything. I know that my tank prefers having the water change over not having it changed. We all have our own way of doing things. Every tank is different. Your tank does well with no water changes, good for you, but that may not work for other people. Just let it be. There's no need to try and discredit someones education or knowlege just because they believe in water changes. This is an arguement you WILL NOT win, I promise. Maybe when I start seeing frequent TOTMs that don't do water changes then I might consider it but for now it's what works for me and thousands of other people, so let it go.
 
What does this matter? You don't want to do water changes, we get it. If you're trying to convince people that do water changes to stop doing them, It's not going to happen. We see too many benefits in doing them than not. Although I can't you what it removes or adds, if anything. I know that my tank prefers having the water change over not having it changed. We all have our own way of doing things. Every tank is different. Your tank does well with no water changes, good for you, but that may not work for other people. Just let it be. There's no need to try and discredit someones education or knowlege just because they believe in water changes. This is an arguement you WILL NOT win, I promise. Maybe when I start seeing frequent TOTMs that don't do water changes then I might consider it but for now it's what works for me and thousands of other people, so let it go.

Work up a spreadsheet and factor what a water change of 20% water or another value works out to. Run the numbers over a period of time and show us the dilution amount in doing it to remove excess buildup and what is being a benefit to the new addition of water change. I will be looking forward in reviewing the data.
 
Last edited:
The point being removing water and replacing it a 20% every week or month does not reduce toxins only to a small degree.

I presume you meant that it does reduce toxins only to a small degree.?

Yes, by exactly 20%.

Work up a spreadsheet and factor what a water change of 20% water or another value works out to.

Yes, I've done that extensively and published the results. It was linked in the third post of this thread. Did you check it out?

Here's a graph from it that is relevant for anything that is not also being continually added. You can clearly see that an impurity is dropped substantially. :)

Figure1sm.GIF


Figure 1. Nitrate concentration as a function of time when performing water changes of 0% (no changes), 7.5%, 15% and 30% of the total volume each month. In this example, nitrate is present at 100 ppm at the start, and is not added or depleted during the course of the year except via the water changes. The y-axis can alternatively be thought of as the percent of the original concentration remaining for any material that is not being added or depleted from the water except via the water change.



and this one shows what happens generally with something that is being added continually, as from foods, supplements, CaCO3 reactor inputs, etc. I used nitrate as an example, but the concentration of anything that starts high and is slowly added applies equally well:

Figure3sm.GIF
:


Figure 3. Nitrate concentration as a function of time when performing water changes of 0% (no changes), 7.5%, 15% and 30% of the total volume each month. In this example, nitrate is present at 100 ppm at the start, and is accumulated at a rate of 0.1 ppm per day when no water is changed.
 
Back
Top