Water changing station questions

TheAquatect

I Could Stop If I Wanted
So I am trying to plan out a water changing/mixing system with a RO tank and a SW tank to add on to my reef and want to get some opinions on the best way to figure out how to match how much water is removed vs how much I need to add back for a wc. my goal is to make wc's a no-brainer with a few valve turns.

For example, how do I know when I have removed 10 gallons of old water so that i can replace it with 10 gallons of new water?

At this point the few examples I see doing this use something like a litermeter which is insane $$$ IMO. My personal thought was to use a 3rd container to drain the water into, know the volume, then after emptying, fill to the same container with new SW and pump it into the tank.

Eventually i think i could automate this with some relays and float switches too but for now it would be manual

Am I over engineering this? Are there better ways?
 
I turn off my pumps and let my sump fill up and then pump it down the washing machine drain. That equals 10 gallons for me and if I want to change more I just syphon into 5 gallon water jugs.
 
Good idea and I thought about that for me, but I have a refugium and its baffled so it would be tough. I'm now starting to think a few of the large dosing pumps from BRS on a timer with one pulling water out while the other puts new water in, might be a viable alternative. given the low volume transfer, it might make for a good continuous WC.
 
I posted a thread on here a few weeks back about the same idea. The liter meters are great just really pricey. I found a medical grade dual parasitic pump that you could set to bascially acomplish the same thing. Or you could use 2 doser pumps set exactly the same on timers. I will see if I can find the thread. I hope u end up setting something up so I can see how it works for you. Tagging along.
 
Sounds simple to setup but it can get tricky if you add too many variables.

Basic setup consists of :switches to turn off return pump, drain a certain amount of tank water from sump, fill back same amount of fresh saltwater, turn return pump back on.

It can be done without turning return pump off and on but the amount being removed will have to be a small enough change that the ATO doesn't kick in or add a delay for the ATO to not kick in for a certain amount of time. You'll also need to make sure the amount taking out of the sump doesn't affect minimum pump intake heights or you may end up with bubbles in the display and or burnt out pumps.
 
Like Pedro said it can be done, but difficult that is why I like the method I have above.
All done at once and can be programmed via an Apex or Reef Angel to do it through out the day while you are not at home.
 
Maybe I was over simplifying something? My thoughts were if you buy a dual head pump that runs both pumps simotaniously and u have one pump removing old water from display while the other is relacing new it wouldnt affect the ATO or retun pumps or am I missing something?
 
So I am trying to plan out a water changing/mixing system with a RO tank and a SW tank to add on to my reef and want to get some opinions on the best way to figure out how to match how much water is removed vs how much I need to add back for a wc. my goal is to make wc's a no-brainer with a few valve turns.

For example, how do I know when I have removed 10 gallons of old water so that i can replace it with 10 gallons of new water?

At this point the few examples I see doing this use something like a litermeter which is insane $$$ IMO. My personal thought was to use a 3rd container to drain the water into, know the volume, then after emptying, fill to the same container with new SW and pump it into the tank.

Eventually i think i could automate this with some relays and float switches too but for now it would be manual

Am I over engineering this? Are there better ways?


They make translucent 20g barrels. find a couple and use one for fresh SW and the other for old SW. My mixing station is a much larger scale. I have gallon markings both on my new SW 55g barrel, FW/top off 55g barrel and my old SW water container
 
Maybe I was over simplifying something? My thoughts were if you buy a dual head pump that runs both pumps simotaniously and u have one pump removing old water from display while the other is relacing new it wouldnt affect the ATO or retun pumps or am I missing something?

Correct. If you have a dual head pump there is one motor spinning 2 peristaltic pumps at the same exact rate and for the same exact length of time. The amount of water removed and replaced is identical and it is done at the same time so your ATO or sump is not effected at all.
 
Correct. If you have a dual head pump there is one motor spinning 2 peristaltic pumps at the same exact rate and for the same exact length of time. The amount of water removed and replaced is identical and it is done at the same time so your ATO or sump is not effected at all.

BINGO...This was what I was thinking. I was going to try a cheap set up and get 2 identical BRS doser pumps and set them on timers for the exact same time and see how that worked. This would be on a small 29g tank so the pumps wouldn't be running long. I would also be setting the timers so that they ran while I was at home at first to make sure there weren't any issues. I was also going to set up safe guards like an emergency overflow in case the timesr or pumps malfunctioned. I figured it would be worth giving a try and the price would be worth it.
 
All you need is one extra container the same size as your mixing container, fill your mixing contain up with how ever much water you wish to change. mix and heat to proper parameters. pump from sump, or siphon from the tank into the extra container until it is filled the same amount as the mixing container, then dump the mixing container into the tank, and dump the extra container older water down the drain after.
 
BINGO...This was what I was thinking. I was going to try a cheap set up and get 2 identical BRS doser pumps and set them on timers for the exact same time and see how that worked. This would be on a small 29g tank so the pumps wouldn't be running long. I would also be setting the timers so that they ran while I was at home at first to make sure there weren't any issues. I was also going to set up safe guards like an emergency overflow in case the timesr or pumps malfunctioned. I figured it would be worth giving a try and the price would be worth it.

Rather than having 2 timers, why not use 1 timer with and power strip or multi outlet extension cord plugged into the timer so both pump so on and off a the exact same time.

The first thing that went thru my mind when I read your set up was that one of the timers would lose time and you would have either water being taken out of your tank without anything coming back in or even worse water being put into your tank with out anything being removed there by making for a possible flood scenario.
 
BINGO...This was what I was thinking. I was going to try a cheap set up and get 2 identical BRS doser pumps and set them on timers for the exact same time and see how that worked. This would be on a small 29g tank so the pumps wouldn't be running long. I would also be setting the timers so that they ran while I was at home at first to make sure there weren't any issues. I was also going to set up safe guards like an emergency overflow in case the timesr or pumps malfunctioned. I figured it would be worth giving a try and the price would be worth it.

The chances of removing new water using this method are slim but still possible so for me its not preferred
 
That is what I was thinking, but I read the following that says there is no significant difference, see article

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/

From the article:

How to Perform Water Changes

There are many ways to perform water changes, and some of these are outlined below.

Large batch water changes: These changes are what most aquarists think of as water changes - remove some aquarium water and replace it with new water. Reef aquarists often talk of changing 10-30% per month this way. These changes can be completely manual, using buckets and siphons. They can also be partially or almost completely automated. Some systems allow aquarists to open and close appropriate valves (or turn on appropriate pumps), and pumps take care of the actual removal and addition of water.

In doing batch changes, aquarists should consider the changes in the water parameters that will result, and be sure they do not excessively stress organisms. Differences in salinity and temperature are most likely to be significant, and the larger the change, the more stressful it can become for the aquarium's inhabitants. If there is substantial ammonia in the new water, as there may be in artificial salt water or possibly in natural seawater that has been stored for a while, that can also be stressful. Obviously, any organisms that become exposed to the air can also be greatly stressed. Differences in other water parameters are less likely, in my opinion, to be particularly stressful during water changes, with the possible exception of certain trace elements which may be more toxic in raw artificial seawater when not bound to organics than after they have had a chance to become bound in the aquarium or in natural seawater. The normally encountered differences in calcium, magnesium, alkalinity, nitrate, phosphate, silica, pH, etc., are unlikely to unduly stress organisms during water changes up to 30-50% using natural seawater or aerated artificial seawater, in my opinion.

Small batch water changes: These changes are similar to the large changes above, but are much smaller and are done more frequently. Daily changes of 0.25% to 2%, for example, can be used. One could also do a series of consecutive small water changes on the same day. This method ensures that organisms near the top of the aquarium are not exposed to the air, and that water parameter shifts are less sudden. These types of changes can be done in a variety of ways, such as by removing water via a skimmer and replacing it once a day, or by simply taking out an amount (such as a half gallon) and replacing it once a day (automatically or manually). While lots of smaller changes (say, 30 changes of 1% each) are slightly less efficient than one larger one (30% in a single batch), the difference is small (30 changes of 1% each exactly matches one 26% batch water change), and consequently other factors of convenience or stress on organisms may be more important.

In doing batch water changes of 2% or less, aquarists need not particularly worry about the changes in the water parameters that will result, as long as the new water is of reasonable quality. For example, a 1% change with new water at 55°F from a basement reservoir will change the aquarium temperature only from 81°F to 80.74°F. Differences in salinity are also unlikely to be significant.

Continuous water changes: Continuous water changes, despite their name, are not necessarily performed every minute of every day. The distinguishing feature of these changes is that water is added at the same time that it is removed. The actual rate of addition can be high or low. Reef aquarists (myself included) most often perform these types of water changes with two matched pumps, one that removes the old water and one that adds the new water. Often these pumps are part of the same mechanism (such as two sets of tubing on a peristaltic pump or two heads on a diaphragm pump), but that is not a requirement. I use a dual head diaphragm pump capable of a maximum of 30 gallons per day for each head (a Reef Filler pump from Champion Lighting). In my setup, once I have a 44-gallon trash can full of new salt water, all I do to perform a 44 gallon or smaller water change is plug in the pump. The wastewater is sent down the drain. Sometimes I change 44 gallons in one shot, taking about a day and a half. Sometimes I pump for a few hours at a time, and then wait for a few days.

These changes are slightly less efficient than single batch water changes of the same total volume. A continuous water change of 30% exactly matches one batch 26% water change. As with very small batch water changes, these have the advantage of neither stressing the organisms (assuming the change is done reasonably slowly), nor altering the water level in the aquarium. The ease of doing such changes automatically also makes it far more likely that busy or lazy aquarists will actually do them.

Conclusion

Water changes are a good way to help control certain processes that serve to drive reef aquarium water away from its starting purity. Some things build up in certain situations (organics, certain metals, sodium, chloride, nitrate, phosphate, sulfate, etc.), and some things become depleted (calcium, magnesium, alkalinity, strontium, silica, etc.). Water changes can serve to help correct these imbalances, and in some cases may be the best way to deal with them. Water changes of 15-30% per month (whether carried out once a month, daily or continuously) have been shown in the graphs above to be useful in moderating the drift of these different seawater components from starting levels. For most reef aquaria, I recommend such changes as good aquarium husbandry. In general, the more the better, if carried out appropriately, and if the new salt water is of appropriate quality.

Calcium and alkalinity, being rapidly depleted in most reef aquaria, are not well controlled, or even significantly impacted by such small water changes. In order to maintain them with no other supplements, changes on the order of 30-50% PER DAY would be required. Nevertheless, that option may still be a good choice for very small aquaria, especially if the changes are slow and automatic.
 
Yeah, I'm still a non believer of the benefits with daily sub-small water changes, replenishment of trace elements I can believe but removal of waste products or accumulation of bad chemical I don't believe
 
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