Well the Weekend's over NEWBIE and your "you know what" is MINE

WaterKeeper

Bogus Information Expert
Premium Member
Did you all get you some???

That's live rock and sand I was referring to. If you were fooling around in other ways I hope you were safe and used some protection. We issue that garlic clove necklace to all you newbies so you won't catch ich.

Well, on Friday we were left sinking into the primordial ooze. We traveled down your sand bed from the aerobic upper layer to the anoxic (tech term) zone where oxygen is low and nitrates are reduced to make up for that shortfall.

By the way, MalHavoc, the Jason Droid moderator. said he was "sticking" my treads in this series. Well, of course, I thought he meant I should stick em up my... you know where. But Lo and behold, he made them stick to the start of the Newbie Forum. That way you can catch up on treads you missed (or avoided). This could also be one of Jason's Jedi mind tricks and I just think they are there. Anyway, thanks Jason.

Where were we, oh yeah. By this time we have dealt with the waste nitrogen in our system and eliminated it from our tanks. Unfortunately, there are still things left behind. Waste from the bacteria at higher levels in the bed, dead cells, particles of food too large to fully break down and even dissolved organics that the upper level bacteria just couldn't assimilate. Basically the same stuff that accumulates in the grout around your bathtub.

We now enter the scary world of the anaerobic zone, devoid of oxygen and nitrate, buried deep in our sand bed. The anaerobic bacteria are some of the most primitive and, being at the "bottom of the bucket" , some of the most innovative in using a now limited amount of food.

The chemistry of the anaerobes is completely different than their aerobic cousins. I'd go into it but it would only confuse the marines in this crowd. :D. To make it a short story instead of oxidation the processes used in the deep bed are reductive in nature. The anaerobes also need very special conditions. Obligate anaerobes cannot survive if exposed to oxygen. Many anaerobes like high temperature with some able to withstand near boiling. They are sensitive to pH fluctuation and the list goes on. The point here is that we don't want to disturb the bed if at all possible. Digging around in one's sand bed can change the environment that shelters these fussy bugs.

Like all living things the anaerobes produce waste. Very often this waste takes the form of organic acids. The chief one produced is acetic, better know to you meatheads as vinegar. Now WaterKeeper has a little theory here but it makes sense to me. Since anaerobic conditions produce volatile organic acid, won't those acids react with a sand bed made of calcium carbonate and be neutralized forming calcium acetate and other acid salts? If one's bed is say, silica sand, would not that acid use up alkalinity in one's tank since there is nothing to neutralize it? When people want to check sand and see if it is genuine aragonite they pour vinegar on it and, if it fizzes and dissolves, it is the real thing. If I am right then using a calcium carbonate sand is important in maintaining a healthy reef tank. If I am wrong no harm done except maybe to your wallet and I know you'd just blow it by buying a juvi hammerhead shark for that 29 gallon tall.:D

Another possible by-product of an anaerobic zone is the deadly gas hydrogen sulfide. The Biology Forum, Droid DocRon4U, postulates that hydrogen sulfide is de-toxified in the marine tank by combining with heavy metals. That sounds very probable as H2S is very reactive and if any metal is present it will precipitate as an insoluble metal sulfide. If you have been cruising these thread you may have found some hot debate on what happens to these metals as they build-up over time. The fact is we really don't know but are at this moment trying to figure it out. You may find Ron's article on DSB interesting. Here's the link:

http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm

There are also a very good series of articles in RK magazine that discuss some of the issues brought up in these threads. Search the back issues.

Well that about gets us through the nitrogen cycle and how it is controlled in our tanks. I'll add one more part to this tread about how all this fits together. Until then.

Will you look at those bloodshot eyes! How are you supposed to read these treads with you eyes like those.......
 
Re: Well the Weekend's over NEWBIE and your "you know what" is MINE

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=1342978#post1342978 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WaterKeeper
Did you all get you some???

The chief one produced is acetic, better know to you meatheads as vinegar. Now WaterKeeper has a little theory here but it makes sense to me. Since anaerobic conditions produce volatile organic acid, won't those acids react with a sand bed made of calcium carbonate and be neutralized forming calcium acetate and other acid salts? If one's bed is say, silica sand, would not that acid use up alkalinity in one's tank since there is nothing to neutralize it? When people want to check sand and see if it is genuine aragonite they pour vinegar on it and, if it fizzes and dissolves, it is the real thing. If I am right then using a calcium carbonate sand is important in maintaining a healthy reef tank. [/size]
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Interesting. For those of us using SSB, I assume most anaerobic activities take place deep within our LR. When the anaerobic acids are produced, won't the water column dilute the acid long before it reaches the calcium carbonate sand bed? So I would think the alkalinity is affected regardless of your substrate.

An interesting experiment would be to take two 10 gal tanks, one with silca based sand and the other with aragonite. Fill both tanks with salt water. Then add say 1ml of vinegar to each tank and test pH and alkalinity. Keep repeating. At point, I think you would be able to see when the benefits of aragonite begins.

Make sense?
 
Kevin,

Water movement in the lower levels of a DSB is pretty darn slow so organic acid byproducts tend to accumulate in the bed itself at high concentrations. Your experiment would greatly reduce the concentration and the buffering activity in the water column itself would probably give equivalent results.

Make no mistake about it. I am popping out my own personal theory here. Unless I get someone to lend me a head-space gas chromatograph it remains just theory. Man I sure miss my lab..

A similar situation occurs with LR. We can pretty much conclude that low oxygen conditions and denitrification occur in the surface pores of the rock. What the actual conditions are in those pores is still a matter of conjecture and remains to be studied.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9103691#post9103691 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WaterKeeper

Make no mistake about it. I am popping out my own personal theory here. Unless I get someone to lend me a head-space gas chromatograph it remains just theory. Man I sure miss my lab..


:idea: I have a HS-GC
 
Well, send it to me freight prepaid and we will get some answers. :D

You probably know where I am going here as we could get head space samples directly off the sandbed or LR before they are diluted and oxidized by the water column. Methane, organic acids and organo-sulfides (Maybe mercaptans?) would be enough to make some significant advances in our knowledge of anoxic/ anaerobic processes in the tank. I'll be waiting on you to publish. ;)
 
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