Why do new hobbyists have so much trouble with ich?

Why do so many still have problem with ich?

1. Faliure to appreciate that a tank is both pathogenically and chemically closed. Failure to understand why some diseases have to be eradicated. Failure to understand why other diseases cannot and need not be eradicated. Failure to understand why chemical water quality and nutrition are necessary but insufficient. Failure to understand the limited significance of enhanced immunity for some diseases such as ich.

2. Failure to understand and be good at procedures even after knowing 1.

3. Practically speaking, failure to cycle medium for QT well enough to usually remove the problem of ammonia during lengthy QT.

4. Failure to understand the difference in chemical water quality requirements between a reef DT and a fish QT. Needless complication over something that should be simple.
 
Why do so many still have problem with ich?

1. Faliure to appreciate that a tank is both pathogenically and chemically closed. Failure to understand why some diseases have to be eradicated. Failure to understand why other diseases cannot and need not be eradicated. Failure to understand why chemical water quality and nutrition are necessary but insufficient. Failure to understand the limited significance of enhanced immunity for some diseases such as ich.

2. Failure to understand and be good at procedures even after knowing 1.

3. Practically speaking, failure to cycle medium for QT well enough to usually remove the problem of ammonia during lengthy QT.

4. Failure to understand the difference in chemical water quality requirements between a reef DT and a fish QT. Needless complication over something that should be simple.

I think I am pretty good at 1, 2 & 3. The only thing I monitor and test for in QT is Ammonia. Compared to DT testing for Ca, ALK, Mag, PO4 and NO3
 
I have, above, identified ways which may allow your tank to be hit by ich, and conversely, how you can protect your tank.

I simply do not get the reason why people who do not choose to take these precautions rush to try to recruit others to take the same risk. It seems a very strange turn of mind. Are you offended by the suggestion that there are ways to protect your tank?
Are you upset that others may take these precautions?
I wish I could tell those of you with nano tanks how to take precautions, but the fact remains that if you put a fish into a tank with substrate there may be problems if that fish is infested with parasites. What saves nano tanks somewhat is the fact that many of the nano-fish live on or close to the sand and have some natural defenses against ich: in those cases, water quality remains their best assistance. That or a plain cheap plastic tank you can use temporarily, then put up in the closet when not in use.

My sympathies to those who don't find it possible to quarantine, and I suggest caution in choosing fish and particular care for water quality especially when you have new fish is some help.
 
I think I am pretty good at 1, 2 & 3. The only thing I monitor and test for in QT is Ammonia. Compared to DT testing for Ca, ALK, Mag, PO4 and NO3

If you often have ammmonia problem in QT, then you likely do not do 3 well.

If the medium for QT has been cycled well, you generally will not have any ammonia whatsoever no matter how many fish or how great the bioload is during QT of 12 or more weeks.

The only chance the above is not true (and only for about a week) is that you have to use a drug in the water that harms nitrification. Such a drug is almost always an antibiotic to treat against external bacteria infection. It is fair to say that if there is no bacterial infection then there will be no ammonia in QT.

The proper use of the UV significantly reduces the need to use antibiotics. When the UV can be used (UV degrades many drugs), I always use UV for this reason, even though UV is not much useful against ich directly.
 
Clean source. Look for ich ANYWHERE in the store tanks, because nets and cups go back and forth, employee hands go back and forth, and if you look at the plumbing, very frequently the water supply comes from one sump. If you can't see the plumbing, ask.
 
Petco Nem = Brook

Fun times. I rinsed him well with fresh saltwater. Didn't matter. Lost half my fish and had to go fallow.

At least the Haddoni is still doing well. Wouldn't do it again though.
 
I think one of the top reasons new tanks (not necessarily new hobbyists) get ich is because the tanks are too sterile. The bacteria levels are still low and not fully matured; that is an unforseen contributor to stress in a new setup that people seem to ignore.

If you look at people who have serious wipe outs from ich *most of them are newer tanks (again not necessarily new hobbyists). Old mature systems handle stress and therefore ich much much better (not that ich can't wipe out a mature system but it doesn't seem to be as common imo).

Such vagueness is not necessary, and likely detracts from the truth importantly.

First, as far as fish are concerned, ich outbreak is because ich exists in a tank.

Second, as far as fish is concerned, a tank needs not be "mature"; rather, the medium that does the biological filtration should be robustly circled.

The time it takes for an almost sterile medium to become a powerhouse in maintaining excellent water quality (for fish) is always about 5 weeks +- a few days, when the setup is proper. Within such a time, with enough medium, the medium will handle practically limitedless bioload in QT, even several huge 10-inch fish all at the same time, as far as having zero ammonia.

In fact, a mediun may have more bacteria after 5 weeks then it would ever have, even in another ten years of moderate bioload. During a cycle, the medium could have processed many times the ammonia and in very compact time frame that could ever be generated naturally by livestock, even after twenty-fold increase in size of the livestock.
 
I learned my lesson by not QT'ing and got Ich in my display. Took out surviving fish, into an uncycled QT. Struggled with ammonia for 8 weeks while TTM.

Put the fish back in...SURPRISE! Eight weeks wasn't long enough to kill the Ich...(just like I'd been told but ignored.)

Another tank tear down to catch all the fish...another round of TTM...another 72 day fallow QT.

You don't think I'd skip it again do you?

I QT every time now and no more Ich in my DT.
 
Such vagueness is not necessary, and likely detracts from the truth importantly.

First, as far as fish are concerned, ich outbreak is because ich exists in a tank.

Second, as far as fish is concerned, a tank needs not be "mature"; rather, the medium that does the biological filtration should be robustly circled.

The time it takes for an almost sterile medium to become a powerhouse in maintaining excellent water quality (for fish) is always about 5 weeks +- a few days, when the setup is proper. Within such a time, with enough medium, the medium will handle practically limitedless bioload in QT, even several huge 10-inch fish all at the same time, as far as having zero ammonia.

In fact, a mediun may have more bacteria after 5 weeks then it would ever have, even in another ten years of moderate bioload. During a cycle, the medium could have processed many times the ammonia and in very compact time frame that could ever be generated naturally by livestock, even after twenty-fold increase in size of the livestock.

Vagueness? It's a theory not an exact science...


I have know a lot of lfs that were very experienced and knowledgeable who had big losses (fish) the first 9-12 months but then everything magically got better, much better. Nothing changed other than the systems became "mature" (I use that vaguely because I don't care to really go at length to discuss it) and the fish mortality rate dropped down to almost nothing. Did they magically learn to cope with ich that comes in on livestock that comes/goes through their tanks or did something change in the tanks over time that helped...
 
So here is where I am confused. Assuming no system upgrade (which would be an optimal time to start quarantining) how does a small tank person start QTing? For example let's say I wanted to add a more expensive fish which I wished to QT. What would be the purpose if it then goes into a healthy tank which may have diseases not showing symptoms?

As far as the morality of QT and husbandry I find it funny where lines in the sand get drawn. So you're okay with the high % of fish that died at the wholesale level so you can get yours, but once it's in your care it's another story? Or even if you go completely captive bred (everything living in your system) all your equipment comes from manufacturers that are supported by the larger industry. I'm certainly not suggesting others adopt my views and I'm not looking to adopt others' views.

Ignoring the moral aspects, here is the monetary reason for QT.

Fish usually come from the LFS undernourished and stressed. Even if they don't have any diseases, their resistance is very low. QT is a fishie 'spa day'. It's a chance for them to relax and recover. It's a chance to learn to eat the food you'll be using in the DT.

If the new fish does have a disease it's your only real way to threat it and keep the disease out of the DT.

Let's look at the cost of a QT.
Ten gallon tank - new $10, used free?
Heater - $25 (also a backup if your DT heater dies)
HOB filter - $25 (keep some media cycled in your DT)
Some PVC fittings - $5 (for hiding places)
Salt water - $5

So for about $70 you can have a QT. About the price of a fish. If you save the life of just one fish you have broken even.

No brainer.

QT doesn't need to be set up and running all the time so there is very little continuing expenses.
 
Ignoring the moral aspects, here is the monetary reason for QT.



Fish usually come from the LFS undernourished and stressed. Even if they don't have any diseases, their resistance is very low. QT is a fishie 'spa day'. It's a chance for them to relax and recover. It's a chance to learn to eat the food you'll be using in the DT.



If the new fish does have a disease it's your only real way to threat it and keep the disease out of the DT.



Let's look at the cost of a QT.

Ten gallon tank - new $10, used free?

Heater - $25 (also a backup if your DT heater dies)

HOB filter - $25 (keep some media cycled in your DT)

Some PVC fittings - $5 (for hiding places)

Salt water - $5



So for about $70 you can have a QT. About the price of a fish. If you save the life of just one fish you have broken even.



No brainer.



QT doesn't need to be set up and running all the time so there is very little continuing expenses.


Agree with everything you say. But people get into the hobby without ever being on RC or their local club forum. Hindsight is great about LFS often putting sales over good husbandry. And it isn't always irresponsible people who make bad decisions in the beginning. I for one went to a fish shop deliberately instead of a "pet store" and made a couple trips before buying. I also looked up info online.

It's a little different how bad the relationship between the vendor and consumer is in this industry. In other hobbies the vendors are your go to place for good advice... DIY, pro shops, hobby shops, fabric shops, craft stores etc.

It is aggravating to see newer folks get lumped in as bad decision makers when what seasoned folks assume is laziness etc. on this forum.
 
Vagueness? It's a theory not an exact science...


I have know a lot of lfs that were very experienced and knowledgeable who had big losses (fish) the first 9-12 months but then everything magically got better, much better. Nothing changed other than the systems became "mature" (I use that vaguely because I don't care to really go at length to discuss it) and the fish mortality rate dropped down to almost nothing. Did they magically learn to cope with ich that comes in on livestock that comes/goes through their tanks or did something change in the tanks over time that helped...

When there is no ich in a system there will be no ich outbreak. Very exact.


Ich can be eradicated. Very exact.

From almost sterile, medium to process ammonia can be developed to maximum in about 4 weeks. Very exact.

Nitrate and PO4 to a level undesirable to a reef DT is quite acceptable for QT of fish. Very exact.
 
When there is no ich in a system there will be no ich outbreak. Very exact.


Ich can be eradicated. Very exact.

From almost sterile, medium to process ammonia can be developed to maximum in about 4 weeks. Very exact.

Nitrate and PO4 to a level undesirable to a reef DT is quite acceptable for QT of fish. Very exact.
Different scenario...


Dealing with ich in a system.

New vs mature systems.

New handles ich poorly and high mortality rates ensue.

Mature handles ich very well, no deaths.
 
Different scenario...


Dealing with ich in a system.

New vs mature systems.

New handles ich poorly and high mortality rates ensue.

Mature handles ich very well, no deaths.

What is "mature"?

I am certain that with respect to ich "mature" means little.

Dealing with ich is mostly a matter of rigor of procedure to eradicate it; "mature" has little meaning.
 
All I can say is that my new tanks when I was new to the hobby all ended up with serious ich losses.
Years later, I took my experience and set up a new tank, complete with qt tank and so on. Haven't had a single issue with pretty much anything.
I am so sad that so many fish died at my inexperienced hands. I am so glad that this time around, between my own failures and rc sage advice, so far so good. Patience seems to be the real trick in my book. Patience to cycle a at, patience to wait for the DT to mature before adding fish, patience to make a fish sit in at, patience to do everything by the book.
I'd rather wait for a healthy fish than flush several dead ones.
 
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