Worried about my mandrins

[KurtsReef]

I posted this in the sick fish area, but figured I would try in here as well.

I have started to treat my fish for ICH, of my fish two do not (at least to my knowledge) accept prepared foods and only eat pods. I have both a male and female mandrin and am unsure how to treat them for ICH and keep them alive.

How would you or have you gone about this?

I thought of treating them in a seperate tank (the other fish will be going into a larger new QT later today with some copper treatment) and tossing in some live rock from the refugium, however if I treat with either hyposalinity or copper wont that just kill the pods?

I am so ****ed right now about the outbreak, not having gone through this before...never want to go through it again...

Neither goby shows any sign of infection, however I need to treat all of the fish and keep them out of the main system for 5 weeks..at least that is what I have read.

Does anyone think treating the gobies with copper for a couple days and then placing them into a separate QT with some live rock is a good idea or will that be no better than keeping them in the refugium (you know some ich in the live rock?)

 

[KurtsReef]

Wow, surprised at the word used getting 'bleeped' out...not a bad word. Basically like saying miffed but with a P and two S's

Sorry for my potty mouth.

 

[talon4x4]

I think mandarins are overly sensitive to copper treatment, so I would go with hyposalinity. Plus ,there is also a very good chance that they don't even have ich becuase of a thicker slime coat.

As far as I could find the pods will survive short term in hypo, long enough for the mandarins to eat. So maybe you could transfer some pods from the sump into QT everyday for them to eat.

 

[KurtsReef]

There is a reply in the sick fish area that Mandrins cannot get ICH because of the slime coat.

I did not know that, but think I will keep them out of the main tank anyway and set up a hyposalinity and do as your suggesting get some pods into the tank through either direct transfer or 'sacraficing' some live rock into that system.

I just want the fish to live, but at the same time want to ensure the main system is free of the parasite.

 

[thriceanangel]

My understanding was that mandarins are close to immune to it. That being said I have seen a few die during an ich outbreak but show no signs of being inflicted. Might get to their gills...

 

[thriceanangel]

Science tells us that the ONLY fish that are immune to it are sharks and rays though... I think the mandarin being immune is anecdotal.

 

[KurtsReef]

Thank you, I will go with the seperate tank for them and try too keep enough pods in the tank for them to survive.

If only I could talk them into eating something like cyclopeaze

 

[KurtsReef]

Now the mandrins are still in the 20g with hyposalinity.

The other fish are all in the 45g tank.

Fed both live brine shrimp soaked in Zoecon after making the changes in tank assignment. Then added copper medicine too the 45g tank.

Noticed the fairy wrasses all looked worse, white blotches and breathing heavy. The male is swimming at the top of the tank and looks like he is trying to breath above water the females are on the bottom. They were some of the fish that triggered the break down of the tank yesterday as they had some spots.

The mystery wrasses right eye is very cloudy and it is breathing heavy lying on the bottom.

All other fish appear to be fine. The ICH spots on the puffer are almost if not completely gone. No spots on any other fish that I can see.

This is not fun at all, now I am worried about losing fish. Not sure how long it takes copper too kill the ich parasites that may be in the gills of the fish, thinking of doing a fresh water dip on all of the wrasses effected.

 

[tmz]

The heavy breathing is probably amyloodinium, the other ich or marine velvet. unfortunately it is deadlier,quickly damaging gill tissue. The rest of it sounds like secondary bacterial infection following the apparent Crytocaryon outbreak. The dinoflagellate algal infection amyloodinium will also respond to copper but gills may be unsurvivably damage.

I could not make out if you put substrate or live rock intoe your qt tank. If so be aware that it will absorb copper and petentially release it later making it unsuitable for use with copper sensitive invertibrates. This also means you will have to test and moinitor your copper lelvel to maintain a therapeutic level. If not you will have to pay cxlose attention to nitrite and amonia in the qt tank absent any bio media.
I am very sorry to hear about the outbreak and know how frustrated you must feel about now.
Good Luck
Tom

 

[thriceanangel]

Definitely get the rock out of there. Don't ever put it back into a display tank especially a reef.

I am so on the fence on even treating fish, seems the more you stress them at an already stressed out time, the more likely they are to die.

FYI the copper only kills Ich when it's in the free swimming stage of it's lifecycle. Won't kill cysts, or trophants.

 

[tmz]

Now that the rock is in the q tank it won't harm anything in there and will help control amonia and nitrite.It will mean that you amy need to supplement your copper dose to make up for absorbtion and do do so wioth any hope of maintaining a therapuetic level you will need to test and dose.
Once you have a serious outbreak it is hard to save fish and as thriceanangel says questioning the additional stress treatment induces is natural. I believe,nonetheless, that early and agressive well managed treatment saves more fish than it may push over the edge.
You can also do a one -three minute freshwater dip before treatment. This may reduce some of the parasites and bacteria on the fish but not those in the tissue. The cyst on the sustrate ususally live for a month(although some have persisted without hatching for as long as 72 days) and the free swimming stage needs to find a host in about 3-5 days.This is why a substantial period of fishless time is needed to clear a reef of cryptocaryon .

 

[Cruella]

they can not get ich. their slime protects them. you are going to kill them .

 

[KurtsReef]

Cruella, the mandrins ate very well today on the live brine shrimp. Will buy them more, as much as needed or hatch my own.

There is no live rock in either QT tank at this point, most of my fish are currently in the 45g with coppersafe treatment. The three Scotts Fairy Wrasses all look much better right now and all have been seen eating today. The Mystery Wrasse has not been seen eating and still has a very cloudy and swollen looking eye on one side, also still resting inside a PVC pipe.

Yes, this is very frustrating. Having never experienced something like this, and using what I thought was sufficient quarantine...just very frustrating.

TMZ, I have bacteria filled filters on both tanks, no media at all but some media "socks" in each filter that have been in service for months + I am doing water changes twice per day. If the mystery wrasse still looks bad tomorrow, I will do a fresh water dip to help get rid of some parasites.

I appreciate the guidance.



Have not checked on them in about 3 hours, going to do that now.

 

[tmz]

I've used seeded filter media. You may wan't to check nitrite frequently anyway. There is also a fish disease and treatment site which may be helpful at www.nationalfishpharm.com. I know a formalin dip works well for brooknella and some other things but I'm not certain about what to use for cloudy eye. FYI I use a product called sea cure for copper treatment. Don't know about copper safe except from fresh water days. I do know that many recommend using a product that contains only copper sulfate .
If you have a good level of copper you should be able to prevent reinfestation when these nasties leave the fish. Hope you save them all. Good Luck. Tom

 

[KurtsReef]

I have been doing three water changes of at least 5 gal per day, will continue to do at least that with one of the three changes being 10g or more.

I have been using water from my sump too facilitate the change, not sure how smart that is since "ich" may be in the water column...my other option is too make up 35g of fresh saltwater and start too use that.

GOOD NEWS

My Mandrins will eat frozen brine shrimp, I thawed some out in garlic extreme this morning too feed the fish and tossed a few in the qt tank with them and not having other fish too eat them first over a period of about 5 minutes saw each goby eat several shrimp.

 

[tmz]

Good, I've often thought that mandarins will eat frozen food as long as there is low competition. I think using the sump water is ok. Any ich in the water column should be cilled by the copper and aged sw is less harsh on the fish.