Would vodka/sugar speed cooking process?
- Thread starter Cody Ray
- Start date
graveyardworm
Premium Member
Lately it seems I've been seeing more questions about vodka dosing. So I've been doing alittle reading about it, and my answer for now is no it wouldnt. I think by adding vodka your introducing a source of food and artificially raising bacterial populations. With the cooking process you want the bacteria to be feeding on the stuff which has collected in the rock, not stuff introduced to the water column.
Cody Ray
New member
Thereis something wrong with the way you put it, the vodka increases the amount of bacteria so that there are more to use nitrates and phosphates. I was thinking that this would help increase the amount of detritus consumed. It's a mute point now I decided to just dry the rock and re establish it with some fresh rock from a reliable lfs (the lfs here in phoenix can vary GREATLY). I have the feeling that I will be rinsing it several times as it already is starting to smell. Whatever was causing all of my issues I don't want any chance of it comming back.
Travis L. Stevens
New member
Graveyard/ChinChek, yes and no. Though Vodka does increase the density of the bacteria population by giving it fuel to use up Nitrates and Phophates, you encounter a serious problem when you stop dosing. As soon as you stop dosing (and also when ALL nutrients are used up), there won't be enough fuel in the water to power all the bacteria. So, the bacteria will die and actually cause a cycle. That scenario would mainly be for tanks with high amounts of nitrates and phosphates that grow a bacterial population far to quickly. Which can be done with improper dosing
Also, one thing to consider is. You want the bacteria to consume the detritus that is coming out of the rocks while it is "cooking". That's the point of cooking rocks. But, by adding vodka, you aren't necessarily breaking it down quicker. You are just using up the dissolved organics and not the actual detritus.
One last thing to remember, your water needs to have the proper balance of Nitrates and Phosphates and AMPLE oxygen. If it doesn't, the bacteria will either use up all the available oxygen and leave the nitrates and phosphates dissolved in the water, the bacteria will consume all of one compound and not have enough to consume the other, or a combination of both.
In short, I don't think that Vodka dosing during "cooking" is beneficial.
BTW, Chin, did you learn the importance of Quarintining yet?
Also, one thing to consider is. You want the bacteria to consume the detritus that is coming out of the rocks while it is "cooking". That's the point of cooking rocks. But, by adding vodka, you aren't necessarily breaking it down quicker. You are just using up the dissolved organics and not the actual detritus.
One last thing to remember, your water needs to have the proper balance of Nitrates and Phosphates and AMPLE oxygen. If it doesn't, the bacteria will either use up all the available oxygen and leave the nitrates and phosphates dissolved in the water, the bacteria will consume all of one compound and not have enough to consume the other, or a combination of both.
In short, I don't think that Vodka dosing during "cooking" is beneficial.
BTW, Chin, did you learn the importance of Quarintining yet?
graveyardworm
Premium Member
I'll add that dosing vodka during the cooking process would also make it difficult to determine when the process is done by artificially removing the nitrate and phosphate. Two things which as I understand you should test for, and once their levels remain very low to non existant the rock has been processed enough to be reintroduced to your tank.
Travis L. Stevens
New member
Same situation as above. Things have to die and decompose and it takes time before they turn into dissolved organics that the bacteria can use. Plus, once you're done cycling you either have to keep dosing vodka to keep the population up. Or stop dosing and have your bacteria die, start a small cycle, and reduce your overall bioload. Back in the Reef Discussion forum, there was a thread that talked about this. It's less than a week old if I remember.
RichConley
New member
You do realize that letting everything die off when you dry the rock isnt helping things. You're still going to have to cure the rock to get rid of all the dead stuff in it.
You're probably worse off now then had you just not done anything to the rock.
Travis L. Stevens
New member
Personally, the only way I would dose vodka is in an established tank that's down on it's luck. For example, personal situations leave you to neglect your tank for an extreme amount of time and the nitrates and phosphates have gotten out of control. Or if you are recovering someone else's tank. Or if your tank's bioload is improperly heavy, consistant dosing might be helpful. Or if you had a large fish die that is impossible to get to.
Really, besides more emergency situations, a simple water change will do the trick. Plus with water changes you also replace other used chemicals such as Calcium, Carbonate, Magnesium, etc. Vodka dosing for rock cooking and new tank cycling is probably not a good idea. Patience is by far superior. :thumbsup:
Really, besides more emergency situations, a simple water change will do the trick. Plus with water changes you also replace other used chemicals such as Calcium, Carbonate, Magnesium, etc. Vodka dosing for rock cooking and new tank cycling is probably not a good idea. Patience is by far superior. :thumbsup:
Cody Ray
New member
Actually you clean it before drying it. After it drys you clean it again to remove the dead organics. I know a small amount of detritus will remain inside the rock however it will help when I cycle the aquarium again. Right now it smells a little bit after drying for a day so I will rinse it again and let it dry again. Whenever you remove rock from the aquarium your going to have a cycle even if it isn't big enough for a test kit to detect. Besides I wanted to get rid of the bubble algae and aptaisia anemonies.
MiddletonMark
Premium Member
In my experience - you'll have to dry rock for weeks to remove those pests.
Nevermind you'll have to cook it thereafter - I too would have left it wet. There is all that life in the LR - deep inside - that will take a while to decay now. While it may/may not produce measurable `cycle' after a while - like with `new LR' many months after you test zero there's still a little decay going on, leaving behind odd molecules that may/may not be problematic.
I agree with Rich, others advice here.
Look, you had this problem because of Carbon dosing [sugar/vodka/etc ... all the same]. Carbon dosing is not a good solution, esp since it caused this issue [IMO].
Such dosing is unpredictable, and IMO more risky on a smaller water volume. Nor [IMO] is it a `permanent solution'. If you can't control nutrients without carbon dosing - then you need to figure out why you're importing so much without expro
If you don't have the patience to do it slow, then I would caution against this hobby. You can have a nice freshwater tank in a month - you can have a nicer reef in a year. Attempts to use `helpers' so often end up bad, from my perspective. You can't rush a TOTM.
Nevermind you'll have to cook it thereafter - I too would have left it wet. There is all that life in the LR - deep inside - that will take a while to decay now. While it may/may not produce measurable `cycle' after a while - like with `new LR' many months after you test zero there's still a little decay going on, leaving behind odd molecules that may/may not be problematic.
I agree with Rich, others advice here.
Look, you had this problem because of Carbon dosing [sugar/vodka/etc ... all the same]. Carbon dosing is not a good solution, esp since it caused this issue [IMO].
Such dosing is unpredictable, and IMO more risky on a smaller water volume. Nor [IMO] is it a `permanent solution'. If you can't control nutrients without carbon dosing - then you need to figure out why you're importing so much without expro
If you don't have the patience to do it slow, then I would caution against this hobby. You can have a nice freshwater tank in a month - you can have a nicer reef in a year. Attempts to use `helpers' so often end up bad, from my perspective. You can't rush a TOTM.
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As the "carbon dosing" discussion emerges on RC, driven largely by hobbyists who have never applied either a carbon dosing or bacterioplankton strategy (two entirely different concepts, with the single strand of "carbon dosing" in common), nor bothered to do the academic research ... it is perhaps a good thing to try to keep the fundamental information well-grounded in the science.
You don't need to accept my opinion on this ... do your own reading and decide for yourself. I would urge anyone considering the inclusion of "carbon dosing" in their husbandry practices to do at least some background research.
Perhaps this literature reference post may be of some use to you ...
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showpost.php?p=61104&postcount=17
"The Bacteria Thread" itself can be accessed using this link ...
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5364 .
The science literature search engine which consistently yields the most comprehensive set of results is SCIRUS ... http://www.scirus.com/srsapp/advanced/index.jsp . The combination of keywords "bacteria" and "marine", along with whatever growth media interests you ... glucose, succinate, ethanol, methanol, glutamate, acetate, iron, sulfur ... whatever ... should produce results of interest.
Within the context of "cooking LR", all that dosing a carbon source is going to do is cause a short-term, rapid increase in heterotrophic bacterial biomass. If you're not doing a simultaneous bacterial inoculation in the presence of assimilated nutrient export via skimming, I don't see any particular advantage to such a tactic. JMO.
HTH
In terms of the research literature, the assertion that growth media are "all the same" is ... no offense ... simply inaccurate. While it is true that many unspecified carbohydrates ("sugar") and ethanol (vodka) are used by a vast array of bacterial strains for growth ... different bacterial strains utilize different growth media in ways which can demonstrate radically different biomass growth rates, nutrient assimilation rates, and oxygen consumption rates.
You don't need to accept my opinion on this ... do your own reading and decide for yourself. I would urge anyone considering the inclusion of "carbon dosing" in their husbandry practices to do at least some background research.
Perhaps this literature reference post may be of some use to you ...
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showpost.php?p=61104&postcount=17
"The Bacteria Thread" itself can be accessed using this link ...
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5364 .
The science literature search engine which consistently yields the most comprehensive set of results is SCIRUS ... http://www.scirus.com/srsapp/advanced/index.jsp . The combination of keywords "bacteria" and "marine", along with whatever growth media interests you ... glucose, succinate, ethanol, methanol, glutamate, acetate, iron, sulfur ... whatever ... should produce results of interest.
I couldn't agree more ... this is fundamental, excellent advice (IMO). In terms of nitrate respiration and phosphorous uptake, the whole "point" of carbon dosing is to create an environment which is not carbon-limited, but IS nitrogen-limited. If you can't get control of nitrogen inputs, dosing a carbon source cannot, in and of itself, take a system to a place where NO3 and PO4 are assimilated in a stable and predictable manner.
Within the context of "cooking LR", all that dosing a carbon source is going to do is cause a short-term, rapid increase in heterotrophic bacterial biomass. If you're not doing a simultaneous bacterial inoculation in the presence of assimilated nutrient export via skimming, I don't see any particular advantage to such a tactic. JMO.
HTH
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MiddletonMark
Premium Member
And one had best not make assumptions about folks backround experience without really knowing.
Just might be completely wrong
For the purpose of cooking rock, IMO while with heavy skimming it might have an effect - I don't think it's advantageous.
Nevermind given the system just recently crashed with sugar dosing [http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=7351395#post7351395] - IMO using another carbon-source would be `all the same' ... not recommended.
Such methods can be a powerful tool - but as IMO/IME similar results can be achieved without - I would recommend avoiding another, similar, concept. Is one less week a big deal when it takes a year or two [if lucky] to build your TOTM?
Just my opinion.
