Yet Another "I am close to giving up" Thread

ColtonMeng

ColtonMeng

New member
Hey folks,

I'll apologize ahead of time for the monologue - I'd rather give too much info than too little, to rule out all the typical culprits.

After shutting down my home tank and setting up my work tank, I've run into issues for approaching two years that will not allow me to maintain an SPS reef tank. I've been in the trade long enough to think I know what I'm doing, but apparently not long enough to actually know what I'm doing. I'd love any feedback you can provide on why I constantly have a very slow STN on any SPS added / LPS never "pop" like they should, albeit seemingly never do much. Zoanthids and anemone's grow well.

Tank - inception in early 2016. 220 gallon setup, dual durso'ed with separate siphon / solenoid valve to control any potential gurgle. Separate closed loop currently not running. 50 gallon custom sump. Bare bottom tank.
Rock from prior setup, cleaned with HCL 20 baume, neutralized, rinsed, and added.

Equipment: UV sterilizer. GFO / carbon reactor (not running atm). Reef Octopus skimmer.

Additives: none, outside of mag/alk/cal on a GHL peristaltic doser; until I started getting frustrated around the 1.5 year mark. Acro Power / NaNO3 dosed to no change in effect over the past two months.

Lighting - 8 x 80W ATI, 4x coral+ / 4x blue+. 4 bulb ramp up 1.5Hr, 8 bulb full 5Hr, 4 bulb ramp down 1.5Hr. Coral placement throughout with no noticeable variation in lifespan.

Fish - Tangs, a few blenny's and a clown.

Typical testing parameters, averaged due to no massive changes (except for a few hiccups) over 12+ months:

Mag - 1500
Alk - 7.5-8.5
Cal - 420-450
Nitrate - 0* (until NaNO3 dosing, then stabilized 5PPM)
Phosphate - 0 (never a discernible result)

Test kits-
salifert, outside of Red Sea for nitrate and colorimeters whenever possible. All reagents refreshed numerous times to rule out potential issues with testing.




My guess - I've gone by the adage "horses before zebras" forever. At this point I'm of the opinion I've ruled out any potential culprit several times over, without finding the true issue. My only thought at this point is plumbing hosing, of which I'm using pool grade material. I've read through so many of Randy's documents (and others) that my mind is beginning to dream about Redfield Ratio's and Shrimp (don't ask - some random study).


Any and all suggestions will be greatly appreciated. I'd give anything to solve this bloody issue.


Colton

For what it is worth - my prior tank grew SPS with a fervor.
 
Left out - 4 x Tunze 3200gph power heads, with controllers. Dialed back, and no direct flow on any particular coral.

I typically lose a new frag of SPS in about 4 weeks, depending on size. STN is tip-down.
 
I 100000000% gave up all SPS 6 years ago bc i watched a bunch of growing branching Acros i had going for years die in the matter of a week. I seriously had a thought of taking my aluminum batball bat and smashing it all into pieces.

Ever since i have SWORE OFF all SPS for 6yrs and have gone 100% LPS and softies. And im a much much HAPPIER reefer bc LPS are much more forgiving.

The only way SPS would ever make it back my tank is if it was given to me for free.

6yrs ago i made a VOW to never ever buy another SPS. i have never regretted thus vow since then. I love my zoas, palys, softies, etc. There are some craaaaaazy colored palys out there to keep my 20yr reefing interest.
 
I hear you - I just used to be able to make it work. during the year long overlap between my old tank / this new tank, I've either forgotten something critical or have screwed something up.

This new setup was designed around a full SPS reef, with a complete overkill on flow, lighting and stability. How ironic that I've had the same issues for pushing 2.5 years with SPS.
 
ColtonMeng said:
I hear you - I just used to be able to make it work. during the year long overlap between my old tank / this new tank, I've either forgotten something critical or have screwed something up.

This new setup was designed around a full SPS reef, with a complete overkill on flow, lighting and stability. How ironic that I've had the same issues for pushing 2.5 years with SPS.
Click to expand...

Water source? Are you using an RODI filter? Does your water supplier use chloramines and if so, do you have dedicated chloramine filters? Chloramines are a huge issue and will pass through RODI filters without generating TDS. Your water either needs to be treated to remove chloramines with a product such as Prime or you need chloramine prefilters such as Pentek Chlorplus filters.
 
Hey Slief,

Initial water source was DI water filtered to sub-4mmhos conductivity. Benefits of tank being at my chemical company.

Ongoing water source is run through a six-stage filter, changed religiously. Last change was less than three months ago.

My part of town isn't particularly big on chloramines, although they seemingly treat sporadically. I do have a stage for it. 6-7 grain water coming out of Lake Erie isn't particularly hard / high TDS either, although I've never operated a tank without RODI.

Colton
 
I watched a 30 minute video from WWC it was hosted by another site, it may have some good info in there for you, my take is that your tank is to clean. but watched the video and see what you think.
 
Hey Rio,

I've read similar. Too clean of water can yield significant issues with lighting overpowering coral, while also providing a higher sensitivity to alkalinity (especially when high).

This was why I've been religious about maintaining alkalinity around 7-8.3. Even outside of this, I've recently been dosing NaNO3 up to 5PPM with no significant adjustment in coral health.

While this was only tested for about 1.5-2 months, no noticeable difference in SPS was observed.


The pieces I do have tend to vary on life expectancy - some look just as they were put in the tank for weeks and weeks before a slow decline to death, others die in just a couple weeks. Always tip down, never rapidly.

The piece below was added on 02/24/18. It has not grown at all, although for the first 3-4 weeks showed great polyp extension. Over the past two weeks has been a slow decline.

20180403_160413.jpg

[/IMG]


20180403_160451.jpg
[/IMG]
 
You have relatively high nitrate and undetectable amounts of phosphate and lowish alk. That is not a good mix, it either needs to be "high nitrate, high phosphate and high alk" or "low nitrate, low phosphate and low alk".

Keeping two of these low and one of them high is stressful for corals. When zooxanthellae (zoox) have access to high amounts of nitrate but low amounts of phosphate, they starve the coral of phosphate by taking up all the phosphate that enters to the coral cells. This cause coral cells starve and they either expel zooxanthellae, bleach, starve and die, or they die because of phosphate starvation before they can expel the zoox. First option causes STN, second option causes RTN.

Same thing happens in reverse direction when nitrate is low and phosphate is high.

And this all connects to alk based on the demand of corals to zooxanthellae, as well as N and P.

If you have high nitrate and phosphate, you should also have high alk. This way corals can built their skeleton faster. When they built skeleton faster, they can use higher amount of N and P, and the carbon provided by zoox to built soft tissue faster.

If you have high nitrate and phosphate but low alk. Rate at which corals grow gets limited by alk. This causes a surplus of N and P, and the carbon fixed by zoox, simply because corals do not have enough new skeleton to use these for building more soft tissue. This causes the intercellular zoox numbers to increase and coral browns. Corals can live browned, but in extreme cases corals will bleach because number of intercellular zoox gets to high that they start to starve the coral cells. So they expel zoox.

If you have low nitrate and/or phosphate but high alk. This time corals do not have enough N and P to built soft tissue. Coral cell and the intercellular zoox need to compete for the same limited amount of N and P. This means one of the two would eventually starve. If coral cells starve, they expell zoox and bleach. This most easily happens at the tips (or places that get the most light) since those are the parts of the coral that is growing the most, and so has the highest demand for N and P. That is why increasing alk too fast causes burned tips, it is simply this evet happining locally. In extreme cases a coral can completely burn, or in other words, bleach. On the other hand, If zoox starve, corals get pale as they are forced to live with a very low number of zoox. N and P cannot simply support more zoox. If you do this moderately, you get a zeovit tank. In such a tank, there is so little zoox in corals that you simply see the fluorescent proteins of coral against their white skeletons, this is what that makes them very brightly colored. I believe they also produce more fluorescent proteins to protect what little number of zoox they have.

SPS corals are particularly sensitive to N, P and alk because amount of soft tissue they can have is limited by amount of skeleton. LPS can, to some extend, have more soft tissue with same amount of skeleton. A hammer for instance, can have a bigger polyp with more tentacles while keeping the its corallite about the same size. Softies dont even need skeleton, so they are far less sensetive to interplay of alk N and P.

Long story sort, in either case, you should not limit the growth of corals. If one of the N, P or alk become limiting (keep in mind if one is excess it means other became limited), it causes coral and zoox to start competing for the limitted resources. When this happens, there is no point of having a symbiotic relationship. If zoox competing with the coral cells for resources, it is no longer a symbiont but a parasite. This results in coral cells to expel zoox and bleach.
 
Last edited:
Get those nutrients up and prepare to be frustrated. Corals need higher nutrients and in turn you can increase the intensity of lighting. That being said corals are just tough. There must be some kind of magic to it that I can't explain. The last six months everytime I buy a coral I buy two of the same. In several cases one of those corals slowly declines and dies while the other one grows and is healthy. Same coral, same vendor, same time and into the same tank. I think the best we can do is provide a nutrient rich stable environment and go from there. There is no silver bullet.
 
slief said:
Water source? Are you using an RODI filter? Does your water supplier use chloramines and if so, do you have dedicated chloramine filters? Chloramines are a huge issue and will pass through RODI filters without generating TDS. Your water either needs to be treated to remove chloramines with a product such as Prime or you need chloramine prefilters such as Pentek Chlorplus filters.
Click to expand...

wow. so one should use Prime even after pushing tap water through 6 stage RO/DI filters?
 
Outstanding information

Outstanding information

Wow. I learned more reading this than I even thought possible... Well stated, sir. Thank you for sharing :)


Tripod1404 said:
You have relatively high nitrate and undetectable amounts of phosphate and lowish alk. That is not a good mix, it either needs to be "high nitrate, high phosphate and high alk" or "low nitrate, low phosphate and low alk".

Keeping two of these low and one of them high is stressful for corals. When zooxanthellae (zoox) have access to high amounts of nitrate but low amounts of phosphate, they starve the coral of phosphate by taking up all the phosphate that enters to the coral cells. This cause coral cells starve and they either expel zooxanthellae, bleach, starve and die, or they die because of phosphate starvation before they can expel the zoox. First option causes STN, second option causes RTN.

Same thing happens in reverse direction when nitrate is low and phosphate is high.

And this all connects to alk based on the demand of corals to zooxanthellae, as well as N and P.

If you have high nitrate and phosphate, you should also have high alk. This way corals can built their skeleton faster. When they built skeleton faster, they can use higher amount of N and P, and the carbon provided by zoox to built soft tissue faster.

If you have high nitrate and phosphate but low alk. Rate at which corals grow gets limited by alk. This causes a surplus of N and P, and the carbon fixed by zoox, simply because corals do not have enough new skeleton to use these for building more soft tissue. This causes the intercellular zoox numbers to increase and coral browns. Corals can live browned, but in extreme cases corals will bleach because number of intercellular zoox gets to high that they start to starve the coral cells. So they expel zoox.

If you have low nitrate and/or phosphate but high alk. This time corals do not have enough N and P to built soft tissue. Coral cell and the intercellular zoox need to compete for the same limited amount of N and P. This means one of the two would eventually starve. If coral cells starve, they expell zoox and bleach. This most easily happens at the tips (or places that get the most light) since those are the parts of the coral that is growing the most, and so has the highest demand for N and P. That is why increasing alk too fast causes burned tips, it is simply this evet happining locally. In extreme cases a coral can completely burn, or in other words, bleach. On the other hand, If zoox starve, corals get pale as they are forced to live with a very low number of zoox. N and P cannot simply support more zoox. If you do this moderately, you get a zeovit tank. In such a tank, there is so little zoox in corals that you simply see the fluorescent proteins of coral against their white skeletons, this is what that makes them very brightly colored. I believe they also produce more fluorescent proteins to protect what little number of zoox they have.

SPS corals are particularly sensitive to N, P and alk because amount of soft tissue they can have is limited by amount of skeleton. LPS can, to some extend, have more soft tissue with same amount of skeleton. A hammer for instance, can have a bigger polyp with more tentacles while keeping the its corallite about the same size. Softies dont even need skeleton, so they are far less sensetive to interplay of alk N and P.

Long story sort, in either case, you should not limit the growth of corals. If one of the N, P or alk become limiting (keep in mind if one is excess it means other became limited), it causes coral and zoox to start competing for the limitted resources. When this happens, there is no point of having a symbiotic relationship. If zoox competing with the coral cells for resources, it is no longer a symbiont but a parasite. This results in coral cells to expel zoox and bleach.
Click to expand...
 
Tripod1404 said:
You have relatively high nitrate and undetectable amounts of phosphate and lowish alk. That is not a good mix, it either needs to be "high nitrate, high phosphate and high alk" or "low nitrate, low phosphate and low alk".

Keeping two of these low and one of them high is stressful for corals. When zooxanthellae (zoox) have access to high amounts of nitrate but low amounts of phosphate, they starve the coral of phosphate by taking up all the phosphate that enters to the coral cells. This cause coral cells starve and they either expel zooxanthellae, bleach, starve and die, or they die because of phosphate starvation before they can expel the zoox. First option causes STN, second option causes RTN.

Same thing happens in reverse direction when nitrate is low and phosphate is high.

And this all connects to alk based on the demand of corals to zooxanthellae, as well as N and P.

If you have high nitrate and phosphate, you should also have high alk. This way corals can built their skeleton faster. When they built skeleton faster, they can use higher amount of N and P, and the carbon provided by zoox to built soft tissue faster.

If you have high nitrate and phosphate but low alk. Rate at which corals grow gets limited by alk. This causes a surplus of N and P, and the carbon fixed by zoox, simply because corals do not have enough new skeleton to use these for building more soft tissue. This causes the intercellular zoox numbers to increase and coral browns. Corals can live browned, but in extreme cases corals will bleach because number of intercellular zoox gets to high that they start to starve the coral cells. So they expel zoox.

If you have low nitrate and/or phosphate but high alk. This time corals do not have enough N and P to built soft tissue. Coral cell and the intercellular zoox need to compete for the same limited amount of N and P. This means one of the two would eventually starve. If coral cells starve, they expell zoox and bleach. This most easily happens at the tips (or places that get the most light) since those are the parts of the coral that is growing the most, and so has the highest demand for N and P. That is why increasing alk too fast causes burned tips, it is simply this evet happining locally. In extreme cases a coral can completely burn, or in other words, bleach. On the other hand, If zoox starve, corals get pale as they are forced to live with a very low number of zoox. N and P cannot simply support more zoox. If you do this moderately, you get a zeovit tank. In such a tank, there is so little zoox in corals that you simply see the fluorescent proteins of coral against their white skeletons, this is what that makes them very brightly colored. I believe they also produce more fluorescent proteins to protect what little number of zoox they have.

SPS corals are particularly sensitive to N, P and alk because amount of soft tissue they can have is limited by amount of skeleton. LPS can, to some extend, have more soft tissue with same amount of skeleton. A hammer for instance, can have a bigger polyp with more tentacles while keeping the its corallite about the same size. Softies dont even need skeleton, so they are far less sensetive to interplay of alk N and P.

Long story sort, in either case, you should not limit the growth of corals. If one of the N, P or alk become limiting (keep in mind if one is excess it means other became limited), it causes coral and zoox to start competing for the limitted resources. When this happens, there is no point of having a symbiotic relationship. If zoox competing with the coral cells for resources, it is no longer a symbiont but a parasite. This results in coral cells to expel zoox and bleach.
Click to expand...

Holy Man!
What a great solid informative post!
Well written...
 
nycman said:
wow. so one should use Prime even after pushing tap water through 6 stage RO/DI filters?
Click to expand...

Only if you have chloramines in your tap water. Normal carbon filters wont remove it. You need one specifically designed to remove pesky chloramines.
 
Read through all of the above - and I agree, this may have to do with an imbalance in N/P/alk, but I'm not sure why.

I agree with the entire post you made, Tripod - what is confounding is why I still had zero growth shown when N/P = 0 and alk was where it should be. This is the low/low/low side of the equation, and was maintained for well over a year; only lately have I been playing around with increasing my N/P.

I've been working more towards feeding heavily (the "P" side) and raising N via NaNO3, with alk still in that range of 8-8.3. I suppose I could try to raise it up once I have detectable phosphates, but I'm worried that will just confound the issue.

Guess I'm back to the testing phase for another 3+ months, while trying to get N/P stable at 5PPM / 0.03ppm respectively, while slowly raising alk to 9.0 or so.

Colton
 
ColtonMeng said:
Read through all of the above - and I agree, this may have to do with an imbalance in N/P/alk, but I'm not sure why.

I agree with the entire post you made, Tripod - what is confounding is why I still had zero growth shown when N/P = 0 and alk was where it should be. This is the low/low/low side of the equation, and was maintained for well over a year; only lately have I been playing around with increasing my N/P.

I've been working more towards feeding heavily (the "P" side) and raising N via NaNO3, with alk still in that range of 8-8.3. I suppose I could try to raise it up once I have detectable phosphates, but I'm worried that will just confound the issue.

Guess I'm back to the testing phase for another 3+ months, while trying to get N/P stable at 5PPM / 0.03ppm respectively, while slowly raising alk to 9.0 or so.

Colton
Click to expand...

Corals still need food. 0/0 isn't low, its non-existent. 5/.03 and somewhere between 8 and 9 alk is what I aim for.
 
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