180 gallon FOWLR going 180* wrong way

[Trigger 180]

Hello to all.
my wife and I are not really NEW to Marine aquaria, but we are new to the forums, and have been scratching our heads as to why we are all of a sudden not really having any real success with our new 180 g. We classify our tank as FOWLER, because the corals we have are\were "inherited" with the acquisition of our new tank, and so we figured that what survives the butterfly fish and triggers we intend to get we will keep. the rest can be a natural snack to better ensure the health of the fish we hope to get.

So, we upsized from a 90 gallon in early FEB, and since then got rid of our 90, after we transferred all our live rock and critters of course! we now have a gorgeous 180 acrylic in our living room, but have had nothing but disaster since. here's the stats:

LIGHTING
2x Current 36inch "orbit" Marine LED strips (mounted side by side to cover the whole length of the tank)
LEDs are: 36-445nm/36-460nm @ 54-12000K/18-18000K each strip

CIRCULATION
- 4x hydor koralia powerheads (350 GPH)
- Red sea "Wave Master Pro" power head controller
- 1 large main pump (unknown size and make, but seems to turn over the water at least 4x an hour)
- uv sterilizer rated for 125 gallon tank (was the biggest we could get on a short notice at the time)

SUMP & REFUGIUM
Both are 20 gallon acrylic, connected to each other via a 2 1/2" PVC.
3" sand bed handful of chaeto, and 10 lbs. live rock in refugium. Reef Octopus Needle wheel 150 Protein Skimmer in sump, and a BRS GFO & Carbon Reactor "“ Deluxe (currently filled with Seachem PhosGuard)

INVERT LIVE STOCK
- aprox. 130 lbs. live rock
- cabbage coral, pink (quite happy)
- 1 Montipora Capricus (about 8" across)
- 1 green finger coral (quite happy)
- Kenya tree coral (plotting it's take over of the tank)
- some green palys (QUITE HAPPY)
- 2 patches of pink star polyps (quite happy)
- 1 angry green toadstool (been sulking since we got the tank)
- 1 colony of pink birds nest Duncan coral (seems quite happy)
- 1 orange sponge (bought to feed our bicolor angle that died, and is now dying itself)
- 3 Ricordia mushrooms
- various pinapple, chicken liver, yellow, & red sponges growing in the live rock

LIVESTOCK
- 6 Blue green chromis
- 1 saddled butterfly (Chaetodon ephippium)
- 1 Falco Hawkfish
- 1 Fire shrimp (Lysmata debelius)

WATER CONDITIONS
PH: 8.0-8.1
Ammonia: 0 ppm
Phosphates: .50
Nitrates: 0
Nitrites: 0
DKH: 11 (196.9)
Calcium: 520
Specific Gravity:1.022

THE PROBLEM(S)
as stated, we got this tank in early FEB, set it up, transferred all our live stock which was plentiful at the time, and admired our new tank from Oregon, now settled in our home in Oak Harbor Washington. all was going well, until my wife took pity on a B&W percula she saw in PETCO. Brooklynella quickly claimed the poor fish, and chaos was visited upon the rest of the tank. nuf said. cardinal rules were broken, the display crashed, things died, and we are trying to rebuild. we did a 90%-95% water change and freshwater dipped the Falco hawk (15 minutes) and waited a week to ensure that the Brooklynella was gone. then we ordered 15 Bluegreen Chromis from LIVEAQUARIA.COM. added them, and they semed to do well. then we noticed that they were disappearing one by one. no big surprise here, we know that chromis are bullies among their own, but we got them to help keep our biological filtration going, and to be scapegoats if we somehow had Brooklynella in our system. We monitored them and we could not see any signs of disease, just the occasional squabble between Chromis, as they vied for territory. Even the Falco hawk seemed happy. so we decided the next move was to get a pair of 2 1/2"-3" Saddled butterfly fish (Chaetodon ephippium). They arrived, we acclimated them (combo floating bag, and 1 cup water from our tank to their bags over 30 minutes). All seemed well. we put the lighting on "Cloudy day" setting, and within 1 hour, both were out, foraging the rock, and generally socializing. YAY US! that was 3 days ago. now, the smaller one was harassed by the chromis, was not eating, seemed unable to right it self, and was mostly hidden all morning. it eventually layed down and passed on.The big Saddled butterfly (3") eats brine shrimp as they float by, but is no longer foraging the rock, and is content to stay in one spot. We are worried that it too will simply croak. we noticed that there were 2 little spots of ICH, so we have began treating with "no sick fish ICH medicine" in hopes that this will help brig things around.

I know that this is ALOT of info in one post, and we have broken some rules in the past, but given all of this, we are still interested in pushing forward toward our dream tank, we just need to get some advise on what is the best way from here. we welcome all sorts of comments and suggestions weather it be on livestock, equipment or whatever.

We hope to eventually have a semi-aggressive tank:
- Maroon clown pair (with BTA)
- Picasso or blue chin trigger
- black bar soldier fish (x2-3 maybe)
- a few of the EASIER to keep butterfly fish
- Bicolor Angel
- juvenile Emperor Angel
- Snowflake eel? maybe?

Thanks to all for your advise!

 

[Sgt Jonny Cat]

Okay so I'm pretty new here but reading this it seems like you never waited for your tank to cycle, and that's what possibly killed the fish? Buying the fish at Petco probably didn't help either. Did you QT him before putting him in?

Just my 2 cents but it seems like you're going too fast...

 

[Trigger 180]

is there anything that we can do to help our saddleback butterfly out? we feed a variety (Mysis, spirilina brine shrimp, squid & seaweed delight frozen foods). is he sulking because he lost his swimming pal? ideas?
oh! almost forgot, no signs of brooknella, just 2 spots of ich...

 

[Sgt Jonny Cat]

Again...rookie here but I would put him in a QT/hospital tank and observe and treat as needed for a few weeks. How long did you cycle your tank? My 55 gallon took almost 5 weeks before I put in some snails and hermits, then 2 more weeks before I added my first 2 clowns.

 

[Trigger 180]

well, we were rather UNSURE about cycling this tank, since we robbed the very well established rock from our 90. there have been multiple water changes since we got this tank too. 2 times if I remember correctly. yeah, I think that we are going fast as well. so we are trying to slow it down. we're keeping an eye on our water like hawks, and haven't noticed spikes in anything, just can't seem to keep the PH up. we are using Reef buffer 8.3 from Se Chem, but that doesn't seem to be helping out much... I am not a chemist, but am trying to get better understanding of how it all works chemically. we inherited A LOT of various chemicals, additives and test kits with this tank. It would seem that the previous owner was into reefing.

 

[Trigger 180]

Again...rookie here but I would put him in a QT/hospital tank and observe and treat as needed for a few weeks. How long did you cycle your tank? My 55 gallon took almost 5 weeks before I put in some snails and hermits, then 2 more weeks before I added my first 2 clowns.

well, as we only have the few fish that we currently have, we are actually using the display tank as the Q\T & HOSPITAL Tank. We are going to buy a 20 gallon & set it up as a Q\T before anymore fish are purchased. gonna have to wait for a paycheck or 2 before we get that set up. till then, we're just working with what we got. I know, rookie mistake after another here. after being in the hobby for 8 years you'd think that we'd have learned by now lol! guess it's better to get back to the basics that work! :uhoh3:

 

[Sgt Jonny Cat]

Okay I can help you here. like I said I would get that butter fly into a hospital tank and cycle your tank since you have no live stock in there after the butterfly. You have live rock, do you have live sand?

I am planning on growing corals but am waiting until I can keep my fish alive. When you start off, mixing your sea water should maintain the PH if you follow the directions on the package. I use Instant Ocean which calls for 1/2 a cup of salt per gallon of water. If you have RO/DI water use it! Try not to use tap water as this is full of heavy metals, chlorine etc. Get your water in there, heater, filter system, and wait a day or 2 then check your salt levels. Once you have that mastered, your tank will be cycling. This could take or weeks. No tank is the same. Its important to GO SLOW! I added a bottle of "Fritz Zyme" bacteria to get the bacteria going

Ghost feed your tank and Check for ammonia and nitrites daily, you may see a small spike in ammonia, and then a drop to 0. I saw 0.25 ammonia and 0 nitrites. I then dosed with pure ammonia and brought my levels up to 2-3 ppm. When the level went down to 0 in 24 hours I learned that my tank was cycled and could handle a CUC . I hope this is right, any experts out there please weigh in if I'm wrong...

 

[Sgt Jonny Cat]

well, as we only have the few fish that we currently have, we are actually using the display tank as the Q\T & HOSPITAL Tank. We are going to buy a 20 gallon & set it up as a Q\T before anymore fish are purchased. gonna have to wait for a paycheck or 2 before we get that set up. till then, we're just working with what we got. I know, rookie mistake after another here. after being in the hobby for 8 years you'd think that we'd have learned by now lol! guess it's better to get back to the basics that work! :uhoh3:

Just remember, if your treating your fish in the DT, the medications could kill off beneficial bacteria needed for the nitrogen cycle. Get a QT soon. Also this sounds silly but I bought "Salt water aquariums for dummy's" It helped a lot along with this forum. Good luck

 

[Trigger 180]

You have live rock, do you have live sand?

I am planning on growing corals but am waiting until I can keep my fish alive. When you start off, mixing your sea water should maintain the PH if you follow the directions on the package. I use Instant Ocean which calls for 1/2 a cup of salt per gallon of water. If you have RO/DI water use it! Try not to use tap water as this is full of heavy metals, chlorine etc. Get your water in there, heater, filter system, and wait a day or 2 then check your salt levels. Once you have that mastered, your tank will be cycling. This could take or weeks. No tank is the same. Its important to GO SLOW! I added a bottle of "Fritz Zyme" bacteria to get the bacteria going

Ghost feed your tank QUOTE]

oh yeah, forgot to mention that I have a 2" sand bed in the DT, and a 3 1/2" deep sand bed in my refugium. forgot about the Fritz Zyme. guess I didn't think about it since we "borrowed" the biological filter and live rock from our previously established 90 gallon. I am beginning to think that even though we took so much from our 90 gallon, I guess we never thought of the 180 gallon as a "NEW TANK". now hat I think of it, we have done 2 or 3 water changes since this tank was set up in our home, and even though the rock and biological filtration came from our 90, changing the water so many times would likely make the tank "as new" too. hmm, stuff to ponder. OH! we are not in possession of another tank at the moment, so, it looks like we will need to treat in our DT and hope for the best. thank you for the help SGT! keep the comments\ideas coming though!

also,
- what is "ghost feeding"?
- I don't have a RODI, but have been interested in getting one. I live in an apartment. but would be interested in setting one up. how do they work?

 

[Sgt Jonny Cat]

Ghost feeding...put a small amount of food in the tank to feed the bacteria for the nitrogen cycle.

RO/DI units can be purchased. In an apartment you may want a portable one. I got one on Amazon for pretty reasonable price. I thinks its a Mirko Omega unit. Very easy to use.

Look at the stickies at the top of this section on tank cycling. They're real helpful.

 

[julie180]

Slow way down. There is no need to "ghost feed" at this point. That is done to provide an ammonia source in a brand new tank. You have taken care of that with livestock.
An RODI unit will make your life much easier. With one, you will know that the quality of your beginning water is pristine. With tap water, you have no idea what is dissolved in it.

I doubt you can do anything for the butterfly at this time. Sorry.

As for the ph, don't worry about it. Its not that important!! Worry more about your alkalinity.
Regular water changes should provide all you need. Supplements are mostly a waste of money unless you are keeping high demand corals.

I strongly suggest you start reading. Read up on cycling a tank, and get educated on Brook. Please do not purchase any more livestock until you have learned the procedures for QT and treating Brook.

Best of luck

 

[biomek]

Did your DT sit fallow after brook claimed your clown? i'm far from an expert but the 90-95% water change won't effect that as long as it had a host of some sort in the tank.

 

[Cymonous]

I believe you need to have your tank fallow(fishless) for 6 weeks to get rid of brook and 9-10 weeks for ICH. There are no cures or meds to rid brook or ICH for a main tank. The only thing you will do with these meds is kill off your good bacteria. When the good bacteria dies, you won't have anything to process the ammonia buildup from your fish.

You can use a large container like a storage container as a QT. You would just need a decent HOB filter and heater. I would strongly suggest to get the fish out of your DT(Main tank) and into some other QT(quarantine tank) to treat them.

 

[Trigger 180]

well, woke up yesterday morning and the last butterfly was dead. all we have now is 6 blue green chromis, and our single Falco hawk. we don't have a Quarantine or hospital tank, but we will be getting one purchased and set up when $ and time allow. it sounds like the moral of the story here is slow down, and cycle this tank properly. we are going to slow it down, keep an eye on what livestock we have, and add new live stock, once we set up a QT. until then, we will be happy with the few corals we have, and chromis\falco hawk. but as a curiosity, given the situation we are in, and that no signs of brooknella are currently present, can we expect the disease to dissipate/die off? I am sure that the butterfly died due to stress not disease. will the falco and chromis still carry broknella with out showing signs? I am just wondering because it would be NICE if we can wait 2 months with the lovestock we have in the tank and introduce new live stock at THAT time. but if we need to hospital tank our current live stock, wait 2 months, and THEN begin adding new live stock, that would be fine too. not to mention, it sounds like it would be a little more responsible. thoughts?

 

[Sgt Jonny Cat]

DONT ADD ANYMORE LIVE STOCK!!!! until your tank is properly cycled and can handle the bio load!! I would get all the fish out asap and get your tank straightened out before you do anything else. And as far as I know (being a rookie) you have to get rid of the host for the brooknella to die off.

If it were me I would QT the remaining fish and start over with the cycle meaning water live rock live sand and go from there.

 

[trinidiver]

Trigger 180, Other that all the stuff the other reefers has pointed out, no one observed his "Specific Gravity of 1.022. This should gradually be increased within a couple of days up to 1.025-26. Other thing is whats your temps like

 

[Trigger 180]

DONT ADD ANYMORE LIVE STOCK!!!! until your tank is properly cycled and can handle the bio load!! I would get all the fish out asap and get your tank straightened out before you do anything else. And as far as I know (being a rookie) you have to get rid of the host for the brooknella to die off.

If it were me I would QT the remaining fish and start over with the cycle meaning water live rock live sand and go from there.

sorry if I was misleading, I do NOT intend to add live stock! I was just trying to address the when and how to add livestock in regards to the brooknella. as well as with respects to the nitrogen cycle. basically mirroring what you have said above! unfortunately, I will not be able to get a QT\hospital tank for a little while. it seems that I willneed to make the tank "bare" of all fish, wait 6-8 weeks, then try again. sound right?

 

[Sgt Jonny Cat]

You can make a QT tank out of a plastic bin, heater and mechanical filter. It's pretty inexpensive way to do it until you can get a tank. Just a thought.

 

[Trigger 180]

You can make a QT tank out of a plastic bin, heater and mechanical filter. It's pretty inexpensive way to do it until you can get a tank. Just a thought.

that sounds like a GREAT IDEA! gonna have to give that a try! oh, and GOOD NEWS! my wife found some of THESE running around all over our refugium! I can't tell if they are Amphipod, copepods, or WHAT, but we sure are happy to see them! anybody got a guess? my guess is copepods of some sort. the pics doesn't really do them justice. it' good to see things starting to come around for a change!