200 Gallon Mixed Reef - Rock Questions

[SFMAquariums]

Hello!

I am a novice aquarist & in the process of building my first tank. It is a ~225 gallon tank. I have gotten to the point where I am now looking to purchase & add the sand/rock.

I have been researching what type of rock to purchase, how much, etc… and has a few questions!

1) I have read that I’ll need at least 1 lb of rock per gallon, meaning that I’d need around 200 lbs of rock to start. Does that sound about right?

2) Looking into live vs dry rock, it sounds like doing as much live rock as possible will result in the best biodiversity for my tank. Having said that, sourcing that amount of live rock in my area would both be difficult & expensive. I was therefore looking into doing a combination of live rock & dry rock. Has anybody done that before? Thoughts?

3) If I take this approach, should I aim for 50:50 live to dry? 75:25?

4) I’ve read that I should cure any live rock by letting it sit & cycle in a quarantine tank prior to introducing it to the display tank. Does this also need to be done with dry rock? Should I let it sit with any live rock to let it seed prior to introducing it to the main tank?

Any experience or knowledge anyone could share would be greatly appreciate!

 

[griss]

The amount of rock really depends on your personal preference and how you want to aquascape the tank. The 1 lb per gallon was more of a suggestion than a rule.

Many people do a mix dry and live rock. My current 40 was set up with about 10 lbs dry and 30 lbs KP Aquatics premium live rock. The 150 I'm setting up will have a mix of dry and live rock. Again, the amount of live versus dry is a matter of personal preference/budget.

There is no need to "cure" live rock. It will eventually become live rock when it becomes colonized with nitrifying bacteria.

I like to cycle my live rock in the display tank and once cycled, then begin to add the other livestock. The only reason I can see to cycle outside the display tank would be if the display is already set up with other inhabitants and you're wanting to add some additional live rock.

 

[SFMAquariums]

The amount of rock really depends on your personal preference and how you want to aquascape the tank. The 1 lb per gallon was more of a suggestion than a rule.

Many people do a mix dry and live rock. My current 40 was set up with about 10 lbs dry and 30 lbs KP Aquatics premium live rock. The 150 I'm setting up will have a mix of dry and live rock. Again, the amount of live versus dry is a matter of personal preference/budget.

There is no need to "cure" live rock. It will eventually become live rock when it becomes colonized with nitrifying bacteria.

I like to cycle my live rock in the display tank and once cycled, then begin to add the other livestock. The only reason I can see to cycle outside the display tank would be if the display is already set up with other inhabitants and you're wanting to add some additional live rock.

Yeah that part didn’t make a ton of sense to me. It’s just what I read in this book i was given, I’ve attached a picture.

So sounds like I could just place my sand & combination of dry/live rocks in the main tank, then let everything cycle. Do you usually need to use a cycle starter?

 

[griss]

Yeah that part didn’t make a ton of sense to me. It’s just what I read in this book i was given, I’ve attached a picture.

So sounds like I could just place my sand & combination of dry/live rocks in the main tank, then let everything cycle. Do you usually need to use a cycle starter?

What's the name of the book? As I said, the only time I've heard of someone curing rock outside the tank is when they intended to add it to an already established tank.

Yes, that's exactly what I do. Fill the tank with RODI, add salt, adjust salinity and temperature as needed, then add the sand and rock. If you're not using live sand, I'd suggest adding it before filling with water to minimize a potential sand storm.

I don't normally add cycle starters or bottled bacteria. I prefer to let the tank cycle naturally. I did use some Microbacter 7 with the 150 I'm setting up but, that's just because I had it on hand.

 

[wvned]

200 pounds or so would be good. It doesn't even all have to be in the tank. You can tuck some of it in the corners of the sump.

Live rock tanks do not need to be cycled. Even if you do a 50/50 mix with dear rock.
However - you will get an ammonia spike from the stuff that dies in shipping. Depending on what you purchase this can be a big or nothing problem. I picked up 150 pounds at the airport shipped freight. The faster you get that into a tank with the correct temperature and salinity water the more of the stuff you paid big money to get will live.
Then I monitored the ammonia and knocked it down with large doses of Seachem Prime.

Understand that the directions are saying you can use up to 5 times the normal dose if needed.
Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 200 L (50 US gallons) of new water. For smaller volumes, please note each cap thread is approximately 1 mL. May be added to aquarium directly, but better if added to new water first. If adding directly to aquarium, base dose on aquarium volume. Sulfur odor is normal. For exceptionally high chloramine concentrations, a double dose may be used safely. To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dose may be used. If temperature is > 30 °C (86 °F) and chlorine or ammonia levels are low, use a half dose.

This reacts with the ammonia to remove (I am not sure it does remove it it, it is supposed to detoxify it) so you dose it based on testing and not ahead of time.

I got multiple crabs, shrimps, an urchin and all kinds of other things and they lived.

With live rock you do not need to add bacteria or seed the tank.

There are 2 kinds of rock. There is a lot of advertising blah blah.
Live rock has been in the ocean for some time. At least the good kind has. Some shops have vats of rock that will work but they are sterile beyond bacteria mostly. They have been exposed to water from the shops system and will work as a biofilter at minimum.
All the other cleverly name stuff is dead rock either mined or created. No matter what the name implies it brings nothing into the tank as far as microfauna goes.

The rock is the basis of the biofilter in the tank. 50/50 is fine. Just add your animals a little slower and let the dead rock colonize over a few months. In 2 years you will not be able to tell them apart.

Quarantine procedures are something you will have to decide yourself. I do not use them and have been called bad names and had my parentage questioned. I have been told all my fish will die by some rather well know people who have killed 100 times the fish I have.
That's all I will say about that.

Some things will die. It is unavoidable. It was avoidable when you could go to a LFS and pick what you wanted but there are no shops here anymore. Everything is picked and packed by someone and mailed to you now.
Some things are easy and forgiving to9 keep and some are verty hard. Some require special diets. Some thing will eat other things you add if you aren't careful.
Don't purchase on appearances and dreams. Build a stable colony of fish and things that can coexist and grow together.

 

[griss]

One thing you will learn in this hobby, there is no single correct way to maintain a healthy, happy reef tank. What works for one person may not work for someone else. I generally follow pretty old school thinking when it comes to most things as these have worked for me in over 40 years in the hobby.

Some people use protein skimmers, others don't.
Some people use refugiums, others don't.
Some people use filter socks or fleece rollers, others don't.
Well, you get my drift.

 

[SFMAquariums]

What's the name of the book? As I said, the only time I've heard of someone curing rock outside the tank is when they intended to add it to an already established tank.

Yes, that's exactly what I do. Fill the tank with RODI, add salt, adjust salinity and temperature as needed, then add the sand and rock. If you're not using live sand, I'd suggest adding it before filling with water to minimize a potential sand storm.

I don't normally add cycle starters or bottled bacteria. I prefer to let the tank cycle naturally. I did use some Microbacter 7 with the 150 I'm setting up but, that's just because I had it on hand.

“Saltwater Aquariums Make a Great Hobby” by John Tullock.

That makes sense to me. Thank you for the information.

There are a few aquarium stores in my city (Calgary, AB Canada) that offer live rock - they have a couple tanks full. Are there any questions I should ask them re: source, etc… before purchasing them? Or do you think I’d be better off ordering online?

 

[SFMAquariums]

200 pounds or so would be good. It doesn't even all have to be in the tank. You can tuck some of it in the corners of the sump.

Live rock tanks do not need to be cycled. Even if you do a 50/50 mix with dear rock.
However - you will get an ammonia spike from the stuff that dies in shipping. Depending on what you purchase this can be a big or nothing problem. I picked up 150 pounds at the airport shipped freight. The faster you get that into a tank with the correct temperature and salinity water the more of the stuff you paid big money to get will live.
Then I monitored the ammonia and knocked it down with large doses of Seachem Prime.

Understand that the directions are saying you can use up to 5 times the normal dose if needed.
Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 200 L (50 US gallons) of new water. For smaller volumes, please note each cap thread is approximately 1 mL. May be added to aquarium directly, but better if added to new water first. If adding directly to aquarium, base dose on aquarium volume. Sulfur odor is normal. For exceptionally high chloramine concentrations, a double dose may be used safely. To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dose may be used. If temperature is > 30 °C (86 °F) and chlorine or ammonia levels are low, use a half dose.

This reacts with the ammonia to remove (I am not sure it does remove it it, it is supposed to detoxify it) so you dose it based on testing and not ahead of time.

I got multiple crabs, shrimps, an urchin and all kinds of other things and they lived.

With live rock you do not need to add bacteria or seed the tank.

There are 2 kinds of rock. There is a lot of advertising blah blah.
Live rock has been in the ocean for some time. At least the good kind has. Some shops have vats of rock that will work but they are sterile beyond bacteria mostly. They have been exposed to water from the shops system and will work as a biofilter at minimum.
All the other cleverly name stuff is dead rock either mined or created. No matter what the name implies it brings nothing into the tank as far as microfauna goes.

The rock is the basis of the biofilter in the tank. 50/50 is fine. Just add your animals a little slower and let the dead rock colonize over a few months. In 2 years you will not be able to tell them apart.

Quarantine procedures are something you will have to decide yourself. I do not use them and have been called bad names and had my parentage questioned. I have been told all my fish will die by some rather well know people who have killed 100 times the fish I have.
That's all I will say about that.

Some things will die. It is unavoidable. It was avoidable when you could go to a LFS and pick what you wanted but there are no shops here anymore. Everything is picked and packed by someone and mailed to you now.
Some things are easy and forgiving to9 keep and some are verty hard. Some require special diets. Some thing will eat other things you add if you aren't careful.
Don't purchase on appearances and dreams. Build a stable colony of fish and things that can coexist and grow together.

Wow that’s a lot of very useful information/insight. Thanks so much!

Now I’ve been looking at some local aquarium shops that offer live rock - I’ve seen some big bins of the Marco “live rock” that is clearly dry/dead. But there are also some stores that have aquariums filled with “live rock” & advertise it as such. Based on your post, seems like that may be a waste of time? Is their certain questions I should ask prior to purchase? Or is there an online retailer you’d recommend?

 

[griss]

“Saltwater Aquariums Make a Great Hobby” by John Tullock.

That makes sense to me. Thank you for the information.

There are a few aquarium stores in my city (Calgary, AB Canada) that offer live rock - they have a couple tanks full. Are there any questions I should ask them re: source, etc… before purchasing them? Or do you think I’d be better off ordering online?

It looks like that book was originally published in 2006 so, 20 years ago. Don't get me wrong, Tullock did many positive things for this hobby so, I'm not criticizing him. That said, even before 2006, I never cycled live rock in an quarantine tank.

Yes, I would ask the source of the live rock. As @wvned mentioned, the term live rock is used very loosely by sellers. Dry painted rock infused with bacteria is called live rock, dry rock placed in a vat of saltwater to gain bacteria is called live rock, etc. I only consider rock live if it has spent several years in the ocean.

I personally want all the hitchhikers you get with real live rock. I've gotten corals, urchins, macroalgaes, shrimp, crabs, snails, starfish, etc. from ocean sourced live rock.

 

[wvned]

As you live in Canada I have no idea what is available. There are companies here that take mined rock fro ancient reefs and dump it in the ocean then come back later and collect it. There are generally several grades available based on how much life is on it.

The lighter and more porous a rock is the better it is for the tank. Yes stores are getting Marco rock and putting it in vats and selling it as live rock at a much higher price.

I don't have a handle on what's out there since I haven't bought any in a long while now. And watch for used from people getting out of the hobby.

 

[SFMAquariums]

As you live in Canada I have no idea what is available. There are companies here that take mined rock fro ancient reefs and dump it in the ocean then come back later and collect it. There are generally several grades available based on how much life is on it.

The lighter and more porous a rock is the better it is for the tank. Yes stores are getting Marco rock and putting it in vats and selling it as live rock at a much higher price.

I don't have a handle on what's out there since I haven't bought any in a long while now. And watch for used from people getting out of the hobby.

Thank you for all the help! Your answers have been very helpful. There is someone in my area that is selling some live rock from their tank so I am in the process of looking into that, anything I should look for or ask when buying second hand like this?

 

[wvned]

Thank you for all the help! Your answers have been very helpful. There is someone in my area that is selling some live rock from their tank so I am in the process of looking into that, anything I should look for or ask when buying second hand like this?

What you need to know is if the rock is in a running maintained system still or has been left in buckets or something after a system has been taken down and left to dry. Then you are looking at dead rock again.
It can be covered in stuff you don't want. It can be a great find.
It can still be used but would have to be cooked then to get the phosphates out of it. Acid baths an other extra work you probably dont want.
How cheap it is, the type it is, condition would determine if it is worth using.
LOL it's like buying an old car. Has it been sitting and rusting out back or driven on weekends and needs a little TLC.

 

[griss]

^ By “cooking” live rock, we don’t meant baking, that could be deadly. Cooking rock means placing it in a vat of seawater, in the dark for an extended period of time to allow excess nutrients to leach out. Over time, if available, rock absorbs nutrients like phosphate and can slowly release them causing algae issues.

 

[brandon429]

And to add:

There's two types of live rock we access.

That book is dated, and doesn't define updated terms at all that's why it's confusing. It's discussing only one of two types we access.

1. Uncured rock means straight from the ocean, shipped to you, with oceanic animals attached that are destined to die (like sponges or tunicates for example) because our reef tanks don't support all the life the ocean supports. When those die off (you can also just surgically remove them and make it ready in one day; all old reefing sources claim massive wait times help in things, there's updated science to know) the rock is ready. This is the rock that section of the book discusses.

And at times this rock has animals that will live that you don't want, like gorilla crabs or specialized invasive algae at times. Curing means letting unselected animals die off and fall away from the rock, or observing a few weeks to see if bad characters are inside it has nothing to do with bacteria, as live rock from either source permanently maintains its own bacteria as long as it's kept in saltwater.

2. Already cured rock. The best of the two.

When someone breaks down a running reef tank, or is willing to sell existing live rock from a tank, that's instant ready rock. You lift it out of one tank, set it into another tank, and the new tank is now aged instantly with no additives or further action needed. It doesn't require viewing time as any hitchhikers are already cured out and away.

*the transfer among systems does not harm any aspect of this rock. Being out of water for a surprising length of time does not harm this rock either: it's just shy of bulletproof.

It doesn't need bacterial help ever, just like the first set. neither of these options ever need you to buy and add bottle bacteria either, the bacteria on both options are of the highest quality in reefing and never need to be assessed, measured, dosed for etc

The book, just about 90% of all reef cycling material ever published excludes choice set #2. The impact on our hobby of excluding option #2 rocks from cycle training actually has massive setbacks for us. Slowly, we're fixing that though but not by books

I've noticed that rocks coming from petco / inside the display tanks are #2 options for example. though they don't have a ton in stock they could sell at once, what they can sell is good for making an instant skip cycle nano reef. This is a real world example of where small tank owners can find cured rocks. TBS live rocks online is a great place large tank owners can buy option #1 rocks.

Lastly, yes if you mix live and dry rock and let it sit long enough the dry will cure over.

As long as I reef, I'll never start a reef with any degree of dry rock whatsoever. Many do, though. We get a lot of remediation work in tank fix threads from those who like dry rock starts.

 

[brandon429]

Wanted to add something for all new reefers

Get ready to be sold on the words "bacteria" and "dna testing" mercilessly.


You're walking into a system using pitch words of the day, designed to extract your cash by causing a concern and then selling you the remedy, but there's no concern.

If you simply exclude the words "bacteria" or "DNA testing" from your buying motivation right now, before they get to you via marketing and Ted talks, your reef will live better and you'll save money.

If you're forced to handle all challenges in your reef as NOT a bacterial problem, you can attain unlimited biological lifespan for your reef by physical actions on things you can easily see, the trick isn't in managing things you can't see and it's not in paying a company to dna test your water. You can reef a lifetime with a pristine reef, IG worthy, without either of these two concepts ever factoring.


you won't get fleeced into paying for unhelpful assays, you will save money on buying unneeded bacterial supplements, you will gain confidence in knowing you can physically force your reef to run by a certain set of actions/ things you do. It's not in the measurement, dosing, or caring about bacteria, or coaxing it to run with crossed fingers. There are action sets you can run/ simple ones/ that will always result in growing coral and you won't have to ever care about bacteria or dna testing for the entire life of the tank. You'll save hundreds of $

The rule: your bacterial colonies are always in flux by changes that happen at different times in a reef tanks lifespan, some daily and some changes take place over year's time.


Paying someone eighty dollars to give you a dna snippet of one section of this continual flux cannot help your reef: it does help in commerce though.

Your reef bacteria are going to self manage as long as you keep them wet with saltwater. Your can't starve them by withholding feed: if they're wet, they're accessing natural support feeds.

They don't need boosting, or for you to care about them in any way.

Focus on not letting your sandbed compile waste, focus on never letting invasive algae take hold because you lifted out the rocks and scraped it off: you didn't just sit there and watch something you can see, take over. You did action vs testing and dosing, this is the unlimited lifespan reef tank of no fleeceability.


That being said, I know you're going to do it anyway lol. Don't say I didn't tell you though

- when you think of paying someone for a dna test, consider this:

Visit a forum on any board where people are battling invasive dinos in reef tanks. Some of the threads are six thousand pages long of ongoing jobs. Is dna testing helping anyone there?

Go into a fish disease forum, many abound. Look at the daily input new help threads for the managers of the forum to fix diseases in fish that never end. Who's prescribing a dna test to fix the issue? They're all quarantining and observing and setting up fallow for infected systems. They're doing physical things to avoid disease entry into a new display tank... they're fallowing out infected displays using calculated time frame waits, dna testing isn't part of any of the actions.


Go into an algae/ invasion help thread. Dna testing: not found in the scrolls of help threads needing to be physically worked.

Go into any cycling forum.... no dna testing in use. We just covered that every major milestone challenge you'll ever face has nothing to do with dna testing, yet you're still going to pay 'biomics to run the test.

You can't resist; that's marketing.

Long lifespan reefing paradigms come from owners of long lifespan reefs, they don't come from salesmen.

 

[Uncle99]

“Saltwater Aquariums Make a Great Hobby” by John Tullock.

That makes sense to me. Thank you for the information.

There are a few aquarium stores in my city (Calgary, AB Canada) that offer live rock - they have a couple tanks full. Are there any questions I should ask them re: source, etc… before purchasing them? Or do you think I’d be better off ordering online?

I live where you do and any “live rock” is simply dead rock the store keeps in water.
It’s exactly the same as you putting rock in water for months with bacteria.
Is that better than dry? I would argue no as it also usually comes with gorilla crabs and maybe a mantis if you’re truly unlucky, and is no where close to live ocean rock.

These days, I just use Carib-Sea Purple rock (cause it looks great day 1) a bottle of bacteria (or a blend of a few if you wish) with saltwater, I wait 1 week, test only for nitrates, and in the first fish go.

You’ll get your diversity, each time you add something wet to your display and you will end up in the exact same spot.

But as so correctly stated, each person has a different way and none are wrong.

This is a 100% dry rock display.

 

[wvned]

Crabs are cool. Why all the crab hate? I am growing some I bought special. I saw 4 yesterday.
This kind. Stone cab from Florida.

So cute.

 

[Uncle99]

Crabs are cool. Why all the crab hate?

Not a hate.
Crabs are cool I agree.
They just have no real purpose in my type setting.
I personally don’t trust any of them.
But such is the nature of the hobby.
Every bio-sphere is different, no two alike.
Love them in the sea, great pics.

 

[wvned]

Not a hate.
Crabs are cool I agree.
They just have no real purpose in my type setting.
I personally don’t trust any of them.
But such is the nature of the hobby.
Every bio-sphere is different, no two alike.
Love them in the sea, great pics.

that was a lame attempt at humor. Those are stock pics from the net.
Here is one I had before that we hand fed. One of my wife's favorite thing I have kept. They lived about 5 years.

so I got some more. They are about 3 inches now.

 

[Uncle99]

that was a lame attempt at humor. Those are stock pics from the net.
Here is one I had before that we hand fed. One of my wife's favorite thing I have kept. They lived about 5 years.

so I got some more. They are about 3 inches now.

Now that’s a crab!
And in a perfect home.
Great shot…..