374 babies!

RedAnt78

Likes fish
I haven't had much luck, I've been able to keep a couple of babies alive up to 3 weeks. I'm gonna change the way I'm doing things. I put them in a partitioned 10gal aquarium with 4gal of water and 3 open ended airlines. I have been using the 1gal containers before, maybe the increased volume will help. I've put in formalin and prime. For the bb I've been using freshly hatched decapsulated daily and at around a week I've been using bb that are a few days old. Enriching with selcon although plan to get Dave's feed once I use the selcon up. I had been doing water changes every other day, I'm thinking that probably keeping that about the same with the 4gallons.
 
RedAnt, I lost 3 babies in 1 week to just wasting away. I posted my problem on a seahorse forum and was helped by an experienced seahorse aquarist that raises them. She told me selcon, (which is what I was enriching with) could promote bacterial infections of the gut. I switched to Dan's Feed and did not lose any more. Good luck with this batch.
 
Ok I just ordered the Dan's feed with immune boost so hopefully I can start seeing better results! :)
To count them I printed out that pic and crossed them off as I counted :)
 
Oh and I've also posted over at the other seahorse forum, but I think I've had 4 posts that never got put up! I really don't like that they have to "review" them before it gets posted. I think that they get lazy with it or are just missing my posts or something :( Is there a point to when my posts will be able to go up without having to wait?
 
Going back to the original post. Larger water volume can help, but you also need really good filtration. For over 300 fry, you will need an even larger tank or you should cull to a smaller amount.

Think of it this way. Suppose a friend came to you for advice and they said they were planning on setting up a reef tank, but it was going to be too small, they were going to overstock it, over feed it, planned on having very little flow and under filtering it. Think about how you would advise them. This is one of the issues most face with seahorse fry tanks!

We started a batch of +/- 300 or so H. erectus yesterday. We normally start them in our 90 gallon round tanks but didn't have any available so we dropped down to a 65 gallon round tank that was available. The flow coming into the tank is low, lower than I would prefer, but that has to be or it would wash all the food out. In the evening we turn up the flows to as much as they will tolerate to flush the tank of food and provide good water. We also have a sweep with an airline to provide additional flow without washing out the food. It is on a sump with enough biological filtration to handle over a 1/4 of lb of feed. Protein skimmer rated at 180 gallons. Mechanical filtration includes a 100 micron sock and a 5 micron canister cartridge filter on the return. The attached image shows the tank.

Just some food for thought.

Dan
 

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Whoa!!! That's a lot of volume! It does make sense though. It must be harder to feed them when they are in big tubs like that....?
 
I know raising a small amount of fry contributed to my success. I only kept 22 and gave the rest away. That way there is less food to hatch, feed and clean and I kept them in a small plastic drum fish bowl drilled at the shoulder to insert an airline tube. I also had a 1" diameter circle cut out of the side with netting over it for water exchange. That way the fish bowl could be magnetically hung in a bigger tank or sump for more aggressive filtration. I think I have a pic of the fish bowl but it's not in a tank though.
 
They aren't any more difficult but does require a larger amount to artemia.

I am very much anti-kriesel! I would agree having the smaller amount of fry would have likely helped. If I were to use a kreisel like the bowls, I would find a way to have some water pumped into the bowl to force water exchange. If not by gravity or teeing off another line, then with a very small fountain pump.

Dan
 
They aren't any more difficult but does require a larger amount to artemia.

I am very much anti-kriesel! I would agree having the smaller amount of fry would have likely helped. If I were to use a kreisel like the bowls, I would find a way to have some water pumped into the bowl to force water exchange. If not by gravity or teeing off another line, then with a very small fountain pump.

Dan
I
I did use the aqualifter pump to continually pump water from my bigger tank into the fish bowl. The only time I removed it was when I was feeding baby brine shrimp for half an hour. After half an hour I put the aqualifter line back in to flush any left over baby brine shrimp out of the bowl.
This method worked for me but I would like to learn if there are other reasons not to use a kreisel model? I am a novice and I am sure I experienced some beginner's luck in raising the 15 babies I have now to 17 weeks but I am willing to learn better methods. Although having said that, I may never raise any more baby seahorses because of the tremendous amount of work, I think I will just buy them from you, Dan. LOL
 
Using the pump was smart. I would probably give them more time to feed but since you succeeded, you have to do what works for you.

I like encourage everyone to try to raise the fry. It is very educational and really gives you an appreciation of what it takes. Success is not based on your overall experience in the hobby but rather what learn from research and experience with this particular area. I have seen newbies succeed, often more than the old pro's who decide to try seahorses. Plus, succeeding in raising even one is an accomplishment that many, if not most, don't have. Patience, persistence, some study and a lot of work is what it takes.

The reason I am anti-kreisel is:
12 - 13 years ago, I tried it. It didn't seem natural to me from the start. I have spent most of my life near the ocean and a lot of time on the water. I could not see how they would have this action in their natural environment.
The reason that most folks use a kreisel is to keep the fry from the surface for fear of them getting air bubbles. The rotating action of the kreisel is designed for pelagic species such as jellyfish to keep them in suspension. The first issue I have with this for seahorses is that nature has programed the fry to go towards the surface to feed on zooplankton. So that is what they are going to try to do. The action of a properly setup kreisel prevents this or keeps moving them away from the surface. The fry will continue to go up. This results in them expending a lot more energy. I prefer for that energy to used for growth and development instead of wearing them out. By going to a horizontal type flow such as in a round tub, the fry will line up facing the current wherever the light is and just hover and feed. This is pretty much what they would do in the wild. Less energy wasted, faster growth and it doesn't wear or stress them out.
The air bubble issue is not from them ingesting air. I agree with Wolfgang Mai who several years ago wrote that the bubbles that fry get are from a bacterial issue developing in the GI Tract. By reducing the bacterial loads in our live foods, we were able to totally eliminate fry with air bubbles. Even our pelagic fry such as reidi, kuda, ingens, etc are allow to feed near the top of the water.

There is a another reason fry can get caught on the water surface. This is from the surface tension of the atmosphere and the water and sometimes along the meniscus where the water surface and tank meet. By having some surface agitation with incoming water and airlines, this is easily handled. Within a couple of days the fry become strong enough for this not to be an issue anyway.

The second reason against kreisels is the overall design of what most use. A true kreisel is designed with a solid filtration scheme. A commercial kreisel will have a steady inflow of water and export of old water. The water exiting will normally be on the outside edge where there is better water change as opposed to the middle of the side. They are also much larger and more stable not to mention, very expensive. Most of the small goldfish bowl style homemade psuedo kreisels don't have enough water volume for the amount of fry and have poor water exchange. Besides not being a natural type environment for the fry, there is now the issue of limited surface area for gas exchange and build up of organics. This can quickly lead to low O2 saturation, poor ORP and an explosion of microbial growth. In short, more things to overcome in an already challenging attempt to rear the little creatures.

Your success, probably among other things, can be attributed to keeping a small amount and adding in more water to flush the tank. Hats off for the success!!!

Dan
 
Using the pump was smart. I would probably give them more time to feed but since you succeeded, you have to do what works for you.

I like encourage everyone to try to raise the fry. It is very educational and really gives you an appreciation of what it takes. Success is not based on your overall experience in the hobby but rather what learn from research and experience with this particular area. I have seen newbies succeed, often more than the old pro's who decide to try seahorses. Plus, succeeding in raising even one is an accomplishment that many, if not most, don't have. Patience, persistence, some study and a lot of work is what it takes.

The reason I am anti-kreisel is:
12 - 13 years ago, I tried it. It didn't seem natural to me from the start. I have spent most of my life near the ocean and a lot of time on the water. I could not see how they would have this action in their natural environment.
The reason that most folks use a kreisel is to keep the fry from the surface for fear of them getting air bubbles. The rotating action of the kreisel is designed for pelagic species such as jellyfish to keep them in suspension. The first issue I have with this for seahorses is that nature has programed the fry to go towards the surface to feed on zooplankton. So that is what they are going to try to do. The action of a properly setup kreisel prevents this or keeps moving them away from the surface. The fry will continue to go up. This results in them expending a lot more energy. I prefer for that energy to used for growth and development instead of wearing them out. By going to a horizontal type flow such as in a round tub, the fry will line up facing the current wherever the light is and just hover and feed. This is pretty much what they would do in the wild. Less energy wasted, faster growth and it doesn't wear or stress them out.
The air bubble issue is not from them ingesting air. I agree with Wolfgang Mai who several years ago wrote that the bubbles that fry get are from a bacterial issue developing in the GI Tract. By reducing the bacterial loads in our live foods, we were able to totally eliminate fry with air bubbles. Even our pelagic fry such as reidi, kuda, ingens, etc are allow to feed near the top of the water.

There is a another reason fry can get caught on the water surface. This is from the surface tension of the atmosphere and the water and sometimes along the meniscus where the water surface and tank meet. By having some surface agitation with incoming water and airlines, this is easily handled. Within a couple of days the fry become strong enough for this not to be an issue anyway.

The second reason against kreisels is the overall design of what most use. A true kreisel is designed with a solid filtration scheme. A commercial kreisel will have a steady inflow of water and export of old water. The water exiting will normally be on the outside edge where there is better water change as opposed to the middle of the side. They are also much larger and more stable not to mention, very expensive. Most of the small goldfish bowl style homemade psuedo kreisels don't have enough water volume for the amount of fry and have poor water exchange. Besides not being a natural type environment for the fry, there is now the issue of limited surface area for gas exchange and build up of organics. This can quickly lead to low O2 saturation, poor ORP and an explosion of microbial growth. In short, more things to overcome in an already challenging attempt to rear the little creatures.

Your success, probably among other things, can be attributed to keeping a small amount and adding in more water to flush the tank. Hats off for the success!!!

Dan

Thank you for your insight. It is very helpful. You are exactly right that I chose a kreisel model because I was afraid of the fry ingesting air bubbles from the surface. I did however wonder why that is not a problem for wild seahorse fry when they too head for the surface? What you said makes a lot of sense that the bubbles are from bacteria in the GI tract.

I am also in full agreement that I succeeded because I only kept 22 fry. I chose a small number because I wanted to use my fishbowl as an 'in tank' nursery. That gave me the benefits of having the stability of a fully filtered, temperature controlled 75 gallon system that the fry had been born in. I was also keenly aware that if I was not careful, I could jeopardize ALL my animals for the sake of the fry and I certainly did not want that! So I chose only a small number and I stepped up water changes and maintenance. Also I sucked out wastes and excess baby brine shrimp with a turkey baster. I use sanolife mic-F in the system water daily and that probably helped too.

I also worried about low oxygen because the fishbowl had so little surface area. That is one reason why I only fed baby brine shrimp for about half an hour. I thought even the high density of bb might use up much of the available oxygen so I compensated by feeding 5 Xs a day. I can do that because I was a full time caregiver and am home all day. I know most folks don't have that luxury. That many feedings may have helped compensate for the energy wasted by the fry fighting the flow in a kreisel fishbowl though. A happy accident, I suppose.

Well, you have given me more info in the event I attempt to raise fry again. Thank you very much. Dawn
 
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