Advanced Water Testing Equipment

[nkd5024]

Does anyone in the reading area have electronic testing equipment that they would be willing to use to hemp me get an accurate test of my tank water?

I am in the Reading area and would be willing to give a few bucks or something to anyone nice enough to help me out!

Nick D.

 

[rigleautomotive]

Nick, I would be happy to but unfortunately I am 1.5 hours from you by car.I recently picked up the Hanna checkers to add to my diagnostic tools.My review is posted in my tank thread and

here http://ncpars.org/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=6&id=44&Itemid=53 on our site.

Does anyone in the reading area have electronic testing equipment that they would be willing to use to hemp me get an accurate test of my tank water?

I am in the Reading area and would be willing to give a few bucks or something to anyone nice enough to help me out!

Nick D.

 

[nkd5024]

Dan,

An hour and a half is quite far just to test water!
Since there isn't another swap until the fall I may ask you if I could come up and grab some frags sometime in the summer.

Your reviews were very helpful, I knew the phosphate checker was better than any regent tests but wasn't sure about its accuracy.

I didn't even know they finished making their alkalinity checker, I will have to pick up one of those as I don't want to add any alkalinity supplements without being absolutely sure that my alk is where my test kit says it is.

I haven't ever messed with calcium/alk dosing before but as I am moving into more SPS corals I decided it is necessary.

What do think about a 2 part dosing regiment? Any brands you'd recommend? My tank is 100 gallons total and about half LPS, half SPS corals.

Thanks for your help,
Nick D.

 

[rigleautomotive]

ESV can not be beat for consistent no nonsense 2 part.A bit pricey but you will save on not having to add mg which is common with many of the cheaper 2 part mixes out there.When you get a good understanding of the chemistry and dosing husbandry you can start researching DIY two parts.Randy's two part formula is what I use and buy the chemicals in bulk and make my own gallons.I do not want you to attempt this right off until you become more familiar and skilled with maintaining the big three (cal,mg and alk) then you can move into the DIY mixes.You are doing the right thing by starting to pay attention to these params,your corals will go from surviving to thriving if you get these in range and stable

 

[nkd5024]

Thanks Dan, I will look into ESV two part.
I just tested my calcium, magnesium, and alkalinity last night with a tropic marin test kit which seems to have the same procedure as salifert and I got,
Ca - 456ppm
Mg - 1600ppm
Alk - 7 dkh

I am going to retest to check if my Mg is actually that high or if something went wrong with the test. As far as I know Mg in that range isn't bad although I may be wrong. I feel that I have a good understanding of what each of them do in a reef, but I agree with you that I should actually get some hands on experience dosing and keeping the levels stable before trying to DIY. I was actually reading about dosing vitamin C (ascorbic acid) earlier today and from the few sources I found good information it seems like a relatively straight forward method of carbon dosing. Do you have any opinions on this method?

I would like to get my Alk up to about 9 to 10 dkh so I can feel safer that it is within the acceptable range and not just my test kit falsely saying its alright, and the Vit. C apparently has a side affect of raising Alk.

Nick D.

 

[rigleautomotive]

I would stay away from all carbon dosing.Very harsh way to deal with phos and nitrate IMO and the good old water change and strong skimming will be much gentler on your corals.The salifert kits are pretty close to the readings obtained from meters and monitors and even labs so I would stick to them for mag and alk.Cal is pretty much going to follow these two if you are using a good salt and a ionic balanced supp like ESV

 

[nkd5024]

I use Tropic Marine Pro Reef and have for the whole 5 years i've been in the hobby. I actually just found out that there was a local reef society in our area.

It seems that the Tropic Marin mixes with a really nice calcium of around 450ppm, a low alkalinity of around 6 - 8 dkh, and a high magnesium level of anywhere from 1400-1500.

I have always believed in a nature run tank of mainly live rock, macro, and skimming. I have added carbon and GFO in the past few years and I have gotten good results using them.

Recently I have caught the SPS bug and now feel that adding some sort of calcium/alkalinity regiment would be more than beneficial.

Carbon dosing pretty much feeds bacteria that are different than the bacteria that are involved in the nitrogen cycle or the anaerobic bacteria involved with DSBs, correct? What do you think makes carbon dosing harsh if I may ask?

Nick D.

 

[nkd5024]

To start with do you think I can just get 32oz of both the component #1 and #2 or should I get a gallon of each? I do have a pretty big amount of corals buy most of them are still frag sized so they don't grow very fast.

You are talking about the E.S.V. B-ionic 2-part calcium buffer correct?
Since it has trace elements in it they won't build up over time since I also do water changes that replace trace elements?

For water testing, is there any reason I can't just buy a colorimeter that connects to my computer, get different solutions with known concentrations of phosphate, pH, nitrate, alk, ca, mg, etc. and buy the regents used with the hanna colorimeter and make my own graph on the computer of absorbance vs. concentration with the colorimeter, and then test my tanks waters using the regents?

This seems like a really cheap; compared to buying each colorimeter from hanna, and accurate way to test my water and would just require a little bit of computer work.
What do you think?

 

[rigleautomotive]

I use Tropic Marine Pro Reef and have for the whole 5 years i've been in the hobby. I actually just found out that there was a local reef society in our area.

It seems that the Tropic Marin mixes with a really nice calcium of around 450ppm, a low alkalinity of around 6 - 8 dkh, and a high magnesium level of anywhere from 1400-1500.

I have always believed in a nature run tank of mainly live rock, macro, and skimming. I have added carbon and GFO in the past few years and I have gotten good results using them.

Recently I have caught the SPS bug and now feel that adding some sort of calcium/alkalinity regiment would be more than beneficial.

Carbon dosing pretty much feeds bacteria that are different than the bacteria that are involved in the nitrogen cycle or the anaerobic bacteria involved with DSBs, correct? What do you think makes carbon dosing harsh if I may ask?

Nick D.

This is only my humble opinion,so take it as you will.

Bacteria/carbon dosing can remove phosphates and nitrates so quickly and to such a depressed level that it renders the coral unhealthy and close to starvation.This is due to the fact that marine animals need a trace amount of phosphorus and nitrogen to survive (Redfield ratio I believe is the science) so reaching below that required amount can essentially starve the coral.This amount of N and P is present in all marine animals living and dead so when the level in our systems reaches true zero or close to it (from manipulating bacteria to consume N and P) or the ratio is so imbalanced that poor health is a result.In our quest to achieve very low nutrient levels to polish color we sometimes and can quite easily cause harm.Where as old school techniques and strong maintenence when employed instead will gently lower N and P to a more acceptable level with out the ease of over doing it in that respect.This is purely all my opinion and experiences I have read about with other experienced reef keepers.

To start with do you think I can just get 32oz of both the component #1 and #2 or should I get a gallon of each? I do have a pretty big amount of corals buy most of them are still frag sized so they don't grow very fast.

[I]You will use the gallon when in a few months max so its up to you[/I]

You are talking about the E.S.V. B-ionic 2-part calcium buffer correct?
Since it has trace elements in it they won't build up over time since I also do water changes that replace trace elements?

It is a balanced mix so you will adjust you dosage according to your alk,mg and cal readings.There is a chemistry calculator you can use to help figure you initial dosages.I would not dose using the trop marin test results though.Please check the # with salifert kits.The alk kit will come with a ref solution to make sure it is on.Trace elements will be fine as long as your salt is not excessive in any of these.

For water testing, is there any reason I can't just buy a colorimeter that connects to my computer, get different solutions with known concentrations of phosphate, pH, nitrate, alk, ca, mg, etc. and buy the regents used with the hanna colorimeter and make my own graph on the computer of absorbance vs. concentration with the colorimeter, and then test my tanks waters using the regents?

You may want to ask in the chemistry forum on that.Its info I do not have fresh in my mind.The checkers I use are around $50 so they are quite affordable when you consider the cost of a test kit that has a large user error tendency and is still about half that much.

This seems like a really cheap; compared to buying each colorimeter from hanna, and accurate way to test my water and would just require a little bit of computer work.
What do you think?

 

[nkd5024]

Dan,

That makes perfect sense as to the carbon dosing. I knew that was a lot of peoples view on it but I was never sure of why it was bad.

Alright I will pick up the salifert ca and mg test, although I think it's pointless to buy the alk one, i'd rather just get the checker.

I actually have the calculator I think you are refering to open in another tab.
I have to raise my alk a bit before adding calcium to get everything balanced.

I will consult the chemistry geniuses on my colorimeter!

I really appreciate all your help dan, your a life saver.
Nick D.

p.s.
I wondering if sometime this summer I might come up for a few frags?
I may have a few zoas you'd be interested in.

 

[tbundy]

I'll have to borrow that po4 checker from ya. I bought the reef colors kit from red sea. It checks I2 K and Fe ( iodine, potassium and iron) works pretty well for a titration kit. Little time consuming but much easier than those old strodium test kits lol

 

[viper3166]

Dan where do you like to keep the po4 then? I have one of those checker's, I'm due for a water change(tonight if all goes well) but tested lastnight .32ppm

 

[nkd5024]

tbundy - If you don't mind me asking what is the point in testing for Iron, iodine, and potassium? Shouldn't those all be taken care of with water changes or am I behind on this as well?


Viper - good question, I would like to know that as well.


Dan - I am no expert on carbon dosing as I have never done it before, but is it possible to dose in smaller dosages than normal so not all the P04 and No3 are removed to the point of harming corals but so it still helps get the levels of nutrients down?

I am more or less just investigating all the different options to decide what is best for my tank. My old tanks never seemed to have coral growth, just them surviving. I always did the natural method just LR, Macro, and a skimmer. I have since added carbon and GFO and am now thinking it would be beneficial to add a deep sand bed. Although I am somewhat confused on them. If they must be oxygen free how does enough water flow through the DSB for the bacteria to actually get to the nitrate?

Nick D.

 

[tbundy]

Regular water changes do replace those elements but that entails doing water changes lol. With how much I work water changes come once a month at best. K is the big element I'm after since I saw some stn a few months ago on some of my oldest colonies and a K level of <100 was the culprit. The cause of low K was a combination of both lack of WC's and a low K in my salt mix. I saw red sea was coming out with this kit and pre ordered it. I have gotten into the habit of testing both my "old" and "new" water to try and match NSW on most of the major elements.

 

[nkd5024]

Wow I must be really behind in the hobby. I just found out there were people in my area that were really into the hobby as well, haha.

I didn't know potassium was also that important that you had to monitor it. I do weekly water changes so you think I would still need to test for it. Or do you just like to know your levels of everything? What about the Iron and Iodine?

 

[tbundy]

I don't think it's a huge deal to watch these params as long as you are doing weekly or biweekly WC's. I don't have the time to keep up with WC's and dose to keep as close to NSW levels as possible. Iron and iodine are just bonuses to the test kit and will only test once in a while. I haven't heard or read about anything significant about those elements yet but it's nice to have those test

 

[rigleautomotive]

I'll have to borrow that po4 checker from ya. I bought the reef colors kit from red sea. It checks I2 K and Fe ( iodine, potassium and iron) works pretty well for a titration kit. Little time consuming but much easier than those old strodium test kits lol

Sure

Dan where do you like to keep the po4 then? I have one of those checker's, I'm due for a water change(tonight if all goes well) but tested lastnight .32ppm

.05 to .01 is my target.If I dip too low I ramp up feeding.Too high I turn up the export and slow feeding.GFO is used also.

tbundy - If you don't mind me asking what is the point in testing for Iron, iodine, and potassium? Shouldn't those all be taken care of with water changes or am I behind on this as well?

No offense intended Ted.
IMO there is no point.I have no first hand info on the red sea testers but historically RS was one of the worse when put head to head with all of the leading brands.K has not been shown in any science(if I am wrong,please show me) to promote coral health or color but the Zeo heads have come to believe it is very important.Mostly being from them trying to explain to all the pi$$ed off people that there SPS RTNed cause of some ambiguous mineral never tested accurately or never proven to be beneficial.I believe the issue is more then likely there advise to keep the alk in the 6 to 7 range(test kit noise would put this at a dangerous level quite easily) and trying to grow corals on the fine line between starvation and life basically to achieve a pastel or brighter color(ignoring coral health).They tend to have there own book of rules that do not correlate with my experiences.The several times I had my water sent to a lab for analysis,the K was in the 300'S with no additions or manipulating values.RHF and I had a couple discussions on K and some of the metals mentioned and he educated me on the lack of data supporting any of these minerals have a benefit in our captive tanks.

ie; NSW If there is heavy metals concentrations in the oceans NSW at a given level(mercury,lead,etc...),and they are there because of pollution and are likely not helpful for the animal in question.Or are the heavy metals there because they are a trace element or a required substance.Proving its beneficial is the key.
So should we add them.I say no unless you show me science that supports they are needed and beneficial to that animal in NSW levels.

Viper - good question, I would like to know that as well.


Dan - I am no expert on carbon dosing as I have never done it before, but is it possible to dose in smaller dosages than normal so not all the P04 and No3 are removed to the point of harming corals but so it still helps get the levels of nutrients down?


Absolutely,its also possible for you to walk a tight wire with no net or balancing pole.Will I recommend that to you.NOPE !If great color and health could not be achieved with out this method of nutrient control then we would be forced.Like I have said many times,there are much safer and more gentler ways to deal with nutrient export.The Zeo method is something I have experimented with extensively several times thru the years with very limited results and plenty of losses.And this is with me following the rules to the letter cause I am jus that kinda guy,lol If you feel the need to try and prove there philosophy,I would spend a year or so on the zeo.com forum trying to digest some of this stuff.I read a few thousand pages on it thru the years.Nice idea though.

I am more or less just investigating all the different options to decide what is best for my tank. My old tanks never seemed to have coral growth, just them surviving. I always did the natural method just LR, Macro, and a skimmer. I have since added carbon and GFO and am now thinking it would be beneficial to add a deep sand bed. Although I am somewhat confused on them. If they must be oxygen free how does enough water flow through the DSB for the bacteria to actually get to the nitrate?

Deep sand beds were proven to be a time bomb many years ago.The original brain behind this method was a guy name Jaubert(plenum system) I believe but most of the data now shows no real benefit long term because of fouling and hydrogen sulfide production in the anaerobic decaying layer.This method was beaten to death many years ago.Remote deep sand beds are now believed to be better given the fact that you can easily remove it when it turns to $hit lol

Well I will quote a friend of mine.Gary the owner of ETSS skimmers."At least you thinkin kid" and this is how great things are discovered.

Nick D.

 

[nkd5024]

haha, I will take that as a compliment. I usually over think everything especially when it comes to my tank. Apparently I am very far behind on current information, I knew DSB's were time bombs and knew that remote ones were better, but it didn't make any logical sense to me how they would get flow through them to help.

I just turned up my skimmer so I'm getting more wet skimmate and replaced my GFO and carbon, so we'll see if that helps. Since I just upgraded my tank I am still having a small algae issue that needs resolved.

I am starting to think my bulbs are partially to blame, I bought the pendants used and the bulbs that came with them are now around 7 months old so I think i'll replace them. Is there any procedure to changing bulbs as SPS are very sensitive to changes in light? I am running 14K 250watt pheonixs currently and will likely get them again. Is the choice of 14K or 20K mainly aesthetic?

Nick D.

 

[rigleautomotive]

haha, I will take that as a compliment. I usually over think everything especially when it comes to my tank. Apparently I am very far behind on current information, I knew DSB's were time bombs and knew that remote ones were better, but it didn't make any logical sense to me how they would get flow through them to help.

I just turned up my skimmer so I'm getting more wet skimmate and replaced my GFO and carbon, so we'll see if that helps. Since I just upgraded my tank I am still having a small algae issue that needs resolved.

I am starting to think my bulbs are partially to blame, I bought the pendants used and the bulbs that came with them are now around 7 months old so I think i'll replace them. Is there any procedure to changing bulbs as SPS are very sensitive to changes in light? I am running 14K 250watt pheonixs currently and will likely get them again. Is the choice of 14K or 20K mainly aesthetic?

Nick D.

New bulbs will be much brighter and better color then the aged Phoenix you are running.They are really beat at 6 months so this will be a big improvement.

Acclimate to new bulbs by reducing photo-period by 25% for a week or 2 reading the corals to see signs of light shock in the first few days( zooxanthellae release,pastel colors or bleaching) and this will dictate to further reduce the period or leave be.Close observation will dictate what the coral wants and you having the ability to read this will be the ticket.

Higher K bulbs will tend to color some SPS a little better then the lower K lamps.14 K being a good middle of the road lamp.Higher K,less growth more color,lower K lamp gives better growth and less pigments in some corals.The Phoenix is a lamp and if changed out often can produce some very nice pigments IME

 

[nkd5024]

Dan,

Thanks for the info, I wasn't sure how much brighter they would be as I bought the pendants used as well as the bulbs which I was told were around 6 months old when I got them so they are a little more than 7 months old. They still have a nice blue color and look like most 14K bulbs do when first fired, although II've never seen a brand new 14K Phoenix bulb fired so I may be wrong. I am planning to change them in a week or so, I just want to give my newer frags a little longer to get used to the tank before stressing them again, lol.

My B-ionic ca/alk supplements, salifert tests, (pH, alk, mg, ca) and refractometer calibration fluid should be arriving any day now.

I am currently building housings for two 21" 65watt actinic power compact bulbs. I am going to use two of them to supplement the 14K MH bulbs to get some more blue light in the tank. This should give me the higher growth rate of lower kelvin bulbs compared to 20Ks, but also the beautiful color of the 20Ks, correct?

Thanks,
Nick D.