Am I screwed? (Velvet)

[snorvich]

Care to elaborate? I did not notice anything unusual behavior-wise. No labored breathing, scratching, erratic swimming, and until the end both the dead fish ate like pigs.

Reclusive behavior, specifically aversion to light, hanging around returns (trying to get newly oxygenated water) are two very obvious behaviors for velvet. Labored or rapid breathing are indications of gill issues for velvet or ich.

Also, fish coming from systems with non therapeutic doses of copper can mask oodinium, and so I would never shorten quarantine time. However, I strongly advocate tank transfer to prophylactically prevent cryptocaryon irritans; but remember that oodinium often takes 30 days to present.

 

[Reeferhead]

Reclusive behavior, specifically aversion to light, hanging around returns (trying to get newly oxygenated water) are two very obvious behaviors for velvet. Labored or rapid breathing are indications of gill issues for velvet or ich.

Also, fish coming from systems with non therapeutic doses of copper can mask oodinium, and so I would never shorten quarantine time. However, I strongly advocate tank transfer to prophylactically prevent cryptocaryon irritans; but remember that oodinium often takes 30 days to present.

Thanks Steve, I did not note any of those symptoms. Perhaps the unfortunate consequence of learning to pickup on these subtle symptoms is that you have to witness them often first hand. :worried:

I plan to research and re-plan my entire QT and prophylactic treatment strategy for fish going forward.

 

[snorvich]

I plan to research and re-plan my entire QT and prophylactic treatment strategy for fish going forward.

My suggested protocol is to use tank transfer for all new specimens to insure against cryptocaryon irritans. 12 days and two 20 gallon tanks is all it takes.

The initial receiving tank is temp and SG adjusted to the bag water( SG a few points couple of points lower than the bagwater is ok but not higher) This obviates the need for drip acclimation and prolonged stays in bag water where pH can rise and ammonia toxicity can increase once the bag is opened. This is particularly important after prolonged stays in the bag.

During the 12 day tank transfer process ( 3 day stays 4 transfers, move fish on the morning of days 4,7,10,13) observe for other maladies. Since there are no meds to interact with in the transfer tanks which contain freshly mixed salt water aged and aerated overnight , use an ammonia detoxifier during each 3 day period. Bound copper products for example can't be safely used with ammonia detoxifiers as more toxic free copper occurs with lethal copper toxicity,even though total copper measures the same.

If there is reason to suspect infestation with brooklynellosis, velvet or flukes , do a formalin bath before starting treatment with copper for velvet, formalin for brooklynellosis or prazi pro for flukes.

Since not all maladies will present symptoms in the 12 days( flukes can easily be missed, velvet can take up to 30 days to present), use a larger cycled QT tank for an additional 2 to 4 weeks of observation depending on the condition of the fish with treatment as necessary.

Most fish receive no medications yet all are effectively prophylactically treated for ich,the most common killer

Ammonia is monitored and has never been an issue during the 3 day stay but a detoxifier is added just in case, The cycled tank takes care of itself.

BTW there is no need to worry about nitrite or nitrate.

 

[Reeferhead]

Also, fish coming from systems with non therapeutic doses of copper can mask oodinium, and so I would never shorten quarantine time. However, I strongly advocate tank transfer to prophylactically prevent cryptocaryon irritans; but remember that oodinium often takes 30 days to present

This is the one bit I wish I would have understood better before this whole ordeal. There are several articles that specify two weeks as "ample" time for QT, including the sticky in this forum.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1846124

Its obvious to me now that two weeks doesn't do S.

 

[snorvich]

This is the one bit I wish I would have understood better before this whole ordeal. There are several articles that specify two weeks as "ample" time for QT, including the sticky in this forum.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1846124

Its obvious to me now that two weeks doesn't do S.

I do not agree with 2 weeks especially since parasites will not always present in that time period. My preference is 12 days of tank transfer followed by 4 weeks of observation with treatment if required. I feel that Prazipro should always be administered during the 4 weeks of observation.

 

[Reeferhead]

I do not agree with 2 weeks especially since parasites will not always present in that time period. My preference is 12 days of tank transfer followed by 4 weeks of observation with treatment if required. I feel that Prazipro should always be administered during the 4 weeks of observation.

Seems like a sound strategy. I need to do a bit more research into the tank transfer method. It seem logical that it could certainly reduce the level of infection but even with 4 transfers do we know the confidence interval for total removal of the parasite?

The Anthias is now covered in ick-like spots, still eating though. I'll continue to try and catch it and the dottyback but IMO its not worth tearing the tank apart for. The dottyback is pushing 8 years anyway and was showing its age. The clowns and the YWG look to be doing ok in QT. I treated the wrasse yesterday as well but I don't think he's handling it too well.

 

[snorvich]

Confidence level in tank transfer is absolute from my perspective. Read the life cycle sticky. But, again, you are free to do whatever you think best.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Confidence level in tank transfer is absolute from my perspective. Read the life cycle sticky. But, again, you are free to do whatever you think best.

I'm a recent convert to TT. Even though I'v only used it once, Steve's description makes it so logical that it almost has to work. But, don't expect 100% kill, 100% of the time from anything. This just isn't possible with any microscopic life; unless the host is also destroyed. Antibiotics, flu shots, dog flea killers, anti-virals, pesticides, insecticides, etc., etc., are never 100% effective.

 

[Reeferhead]

Yep, TT makes sense. I'm going to apply the lessons I've learned going forward after I get through this rough patch. There's always something new to learn in this hobby. I really wish I don't have to learn anymore the hard way.

 

[Reeferhead]

Melenuras was dead yesterday morning. The anthias and dottyback have quit eating. The clowns and the YWG will likely be the only survivors of this ordeal.

 

[Reeferhead]

I believe I'm dealing with ick. The Anthias and dottyback seem to be recovering on there own without treatment. I still plan to remove them at some point and let the tank run fallow but there's no reason IMO to rush it and stress them out further. Now I really wish I would have just left the PBT in the tank to try and fight it out on his own. It might not have made a difference but the FW dip certainly didn't help matters.

 

[sandwi54]

Keep in mind that velvet has a similar life cycle as ich, so it will fall off the fish to reproduce which will give the fish a temporary relief. Like MrTusk said, waiting kills the fish. I would really get ALL of the fish into QT for cupramine treatment immediately, be it velvet or ich. Both are killers, just that velvet kills much more quickly.

If you had a fish die in a day or two of showing white spots, it's almost always velvet. Ich doesn't kill that fast most of the time.

 

[Reeferhead]

I agree. I guess it would be more appropraite to say that I wish I had just skipped the FW and Formalin baths (too stressful) and put the PBT straight into Cupramine treatment... now that my gut says its ick and not velvet.

Like I said, I'm trying to catch the last two fish but I'm not going to tear my tank apart to do it.