Another Cycling Problem - w/ Pictures

[thatgamesguy]

Hello everyone! My name is :headwally: and I'm excited to be here as a new member on the forum. :beer:

Anyways!

I had an aquarium for about a year that I purchased "setup" on craigslist. I never once got the ammonia below 1.5, never got it to cycle, the ammonia levels always remained high, and nitrate was always close to zero.

I was convinced that I got something bad in the aquarium, so a couple months ago I started over from scratch (with a bigger aquarium, why not?)

Size 130 Gallon, saltwater,

Substrate:
3 bags argonite/ 3 bags small grain sand, one bag live sand)

Rock:
1 pound live rock
40 pounds dry rock (some was from the old aquarium, boiled it for about 20 minutes, left to dry for about 3 days out of aquarium, I need more, but can't afford it as of yet, thinking about trying to find some for free somewhere)

Levels:
Salinity 1.021
PH 8-9
High range PH 9-10
Ammonia 0.5 - 1.5
Nitrite 0.1 - 0.25
Nitrate - 5

Fish:
Three mono argentus (moonfish). One is 5", two are 2", and one small clownfish

Age
Setup roughly two months ago, maybe longer.

Filtration
Cascade 1500 canister filter. Floss pad, activated carbon, sponge filters.

Aeration
The cascade does some as well, I have two 12 inch bubble strips and one regular airstone. (temporary, going to eventually power up the filtration so its more like a power head)

Lighting
I have been leaving the lighting off.

Water Change
Roughly 5-10% per week.

Temperature.
85-90 degrees. I live in Vegas, it gets hot! I've ordered some supplies to build a 12v temperature control chiller to keep it under control more.

Chlorination
API tap water conditioner, 4 months old

Chemicals
One treatment of stability

Feeding
Never more than they can eat in two minutes. Every other day at the moment so ammonia stays lower. Feeding them brine shrimp and flakes for the clown.


Things I'm thinking about trying

• Using Prime instead of API tap water conditioner (although I'm thinking about using a water fall/bubble-stone method instead.)
• More Rock? (see question below)
• using a water filter on my water in line to get PH at 7.5, although this isn't supposed to stop a tank from cycling.

Pictures!.. are in attachment (got it rigged with a PC fan to help heat)

Questions

1. On the live rock, I know that a certain amount is required for the size of the aquarium; is it the size of the aquarium that determines how much rock I need, or the amount of fish?

2. Any idea or suggestions?

Thanks for taking the time to read this... unless you just skipped to the end and just read this line.. :uzi: :eek2:

 

[Marchillo]

Bunch of issues I see

I don't think you cycled the tank. Tank should read 0 Ammonia and 0 Nitrite

You don't have enough rock. You need roughly a pound per gallon

How much sand is that in pounds? I also use the rule 1 pound per gallon

You need RODI water. You should invest in a unit. Very important piece of equipment.

PH range and Temp range is a little to wide for my liking. The temp is too high. I think you'll see people anywhere from 75-82. Not saying you can't get away outside that range. I keep mine at 77-80.

I think the major things are more rock, RODI water and a way to keep the temp down. How about an AC to cool the room?

I'm sure others will chime in.

 

[ah_notty]

Looks like the kind of rock you put in a freshwater tank for looks.

 

[ericarenee]

WOW.
Am i seeing things wrong in the pictures

1. Are those the canister filter in and outlets on the bottom of the tank?
2. That yellow looking tint to the tank is that your Lights on?

Provided the above is being seen correctly.

There seems to be NO SURFACE SKIMMING. on a tank of this size its a must.

I also agree you do not have enough live rock. But the sand should cycle if you remove those fish and give it time.

If number 1 is Correct you need to install a overflow box and plumb that into the inlet on the (crap) Canister filter. And have the return to tank go over the top and dump in just at the surface of the water.

NOW Even a Cycled tank will build up ammonia and other chemicals as well as a serious lack of oxygen as there is no GAS EXCHANGE. The air bubble bars do not help much if the surface is NOT MOVING. .

ohh and TOSS THAT Test kit. it sounds like its old and NOT Accurate.

even for a fish only tank you must change out the lights in those fixtures. The bulb you have is Way past that it looks like... Unless its just the camera causing all of that Yellow..
O
SO Please answer Questions about the Question 1. I just cant imagine that i think im seeing is right

 

[thatgamesguy]

Hello, and thanks for the reply.

I was convinced the tank is at least trying to cycle as there are nitrates, its like it can't stabilize. (maybe cause there is not enough rock?)

There is 105 pounds of sand in the aquarium. I was hoping to make up for the shortage of sand later with extra rock.

I should get the parts I need for a chiller on Monday, Although I read somewhere that higher temperatures are actually supposed to aid in the cycle process.

I might try the RO DI water system out. Considering I've got the problem with a brand new tank and the older established tank, there is a good chance it has something to do with my water.

I've got a swamp cooler running right now, it doesn't do much when its 115 degrees outside.

 

[thatgamesguy]

I've got a drip system built into the tank with a skimmer/drain at the top. So it does an automatic 1 gallon water change per day that gets skimmed off the top of the water. You are correct though with number one, inlets and outlets on the bottom. I normally have the bubbliers surrounding the drain funnel which turns the aquarium into an internal skimmer. (not sure how well this idea will work yet)

I'll see if I can get more water moving at the top of the tank.

All the rocks are "real" as in not plastic, but yes, they are decorative looking. Should I only get the lava rock style with deep grooves?

The yellow looking tint is a very small VERY TEMPORARY halogen lighting system. 12v, 30 watts that I was using for the photo that I took at shutter speed 25 at 1600iso aperture wide open. So Very low lighting, I've been keeping the lights off until I get the cycle right. I bought everything I need for a DIY LED day night system, however I am waiting for the parts to come in the mail.

Test kit is a bit old, I'll try another method for testing.

 

[Marchillo]

You should not be trying to cycle a tank with fish in it.

I didn't even notice the lack of Powerheads or the look of the rock. You need to add some powerheads. This would help with the oxygen. That is funny looking "live rock".

105 pounds of sand is low on the problem list. That should be fine.

 

[ericarenee]

I've got a drip system built into the tank with a skimmer/drain at the top. So it does an automatic 1 gallon water change per day that gets skimmed off the top of the water. You are correct though with number one, inlets and outlets on the bottom. I normally have the bubbliers surrounding the drain funnel which turns the aquarium into an internal skimmer. (not sure how well this idea will work yet)

I'll see if I can get more water moving at the top of the tank.

All the rocks are "real" as in not plastic, but yes, they are decorative looking. Should I only get the lava rock style with deep grooves?

The yellow looking tint is a very small VERY TEMPORARY halogen lighting system. 12v, 30 watts that I was using for the photo that I took at shutter speed 25 at 1600iso aperture wide open. So Very low lighting, I've been keeping the lights off until I get the cycle right. I bought everything I need for a DIY LED day night system, however I am waiting for the parts to come in the mail.

Test kit is a bit old, I'll try another method for testing.

I am sorry and do not mean to sound mean. BUT
You must fix that number 1 in my list above to even consider moving foreword . that is the Grunt of your problem. with the light being second and lack of water movement 3..

 

[BigBlueTang]

I've got a drip system built into the tank with a skimmer/drain at the top. So it does an automatic 1 gallon water change per day that gets skimmed off the top of the water. You are correct though with number one, inlets and outlets on the bottom. I normally have the bubbliers surrounding the drain funnel which turns the aquarium into an internal skimmer. (not sure how well this idea will work yet)

I'll see if I can get more water moving at the top of the tank.

All the rocks are "real" as in not plastic, but yes, they are decorative looking. Should I only get the lava rock style with deep grooves?

The yellow looking tint is a very small VERY TEMPORARY halogen lighting system. 12v, 30 watts that I was using for the photo that I took at shutter speed 25 at 1600iso aperture wide open. So Very low lighting, I've been keeping the lights off until I get the cycle right. I bought everything I need for a DIY LED day night system, however I am waiting for the parts to come in the mail.

Test kit is a bit old, I'll try another method for testing.

Woah dude.. You need to SLOW DOWN!!!!

First. You need to get some rock buddy. Marco rocks is good. Decorations for freshwater DO NOT WORK and will result in your tank having 4 dead fish.
RETURN the fish to wherever you got it or a local fish store.
Read the sticky at the top of this forum called setting up.. It will help you through everything you need.
You have no where near enough flow, look at buying Jebao Rw-8's for your tank, sold on amazon.
they will provide lots of flow for your tank.
Your tank is NOT cycled, if there is ammonia or nitrites. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE return the fish. You can buy them back after about a month or so.
You are going to kill those fish if you continue.

 

[CStrickland]

I though Moonfish lived in brackish water?
That would kinda make sense with the filtration and rocks and water source and all, but then why is the clown in there?

I would give this thread a skim to start with http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1031074

 

[Dkuhlmann]

Hello, and thanks for the reply.

I was convinced the tank is at least trying to cycle as there are nitrates, its like it can't stabilize. (maybe cause there is not enough rock?)

There is 105 pounds of sand in the aquarium. I was hoping to make up for the shortage of sand later with extra rock.

I should get the parts I need for a chiller on Monday, Although I read somewhere that higher temperatures are actually supposed to aid in the cycle process.

I might try the RO DI water system out. Considering I've got the problem with a brand new tank and the older established tank, there is a good chance it has something to do with my water.

I've got a swamp cooler running right now, it doesn't do much when its 115 degrees outside.

Actually what you NEED to do is to read this thread. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1031074

It's basically a book that will walk you thought everything you need to know. Much of the things you are saying in the few posts I've read are lots of wrong information, so lets get you off on the right track first.

Welcome to RC

 

[ericarenee]

I though Moonfish lived in brackish water?
That would kinda make sense with the filtration and rocks and water source and all, but then why is the clown in there?

I would give this thread a skim to start with http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1031074

i have seen them in saltwater.. Thou never give them much interest to know where they truly fit... We have guppies in our sump and pond. they produce some good treats ....Ohh and a Nice feeding frenzy

 

[thatgamesguy]

Woah dude.. You need to SLOW DOWN!!!!

Haha, fair enough. That said, we are all friends here, there is no need to talk down to each other, its insulting.

I think I'm missing something on the canister filter. Why is it necessary to have the water return at the top? (aside of obvious oxygen reasons and maybe lowering temp)

Currently I have everything at the bottom so the food and particles get sucked in better. 2 inlets and 2 outlets forcing the water to spin around the tank. The outlet pushes debres towards the inlet that sucks it up to filter.

Then I also have a constant overflow out of the tank that goes straight into the drain.

I have no problem changing it, and I'm going to make it my top priority, I just want to understand why I'm doing it.


I'm reading through the articles. Thanks

In the mean time, I added 3 more bubblers(two extra airpumps I had lying around) all in one spot to create some pretty good ripples on the surface. (temporary until I get my power heads that is. I was under the impression that I didn't need them until I had reef elements that actually need flow, and not just oxygen.)

 

[ericarenee]

Haha, fair enough. That said, we are all friends here, there is no need to talk down to each other, its insulting.

I think I'm missing something on the canister filter. Why is it necessary to have the water return at the top? (aside of obvious oxygen reasons and maybe lowering temp)

Currently I have everything at the bottom so the food and particles get sucked in better. 2 inlets and 2 outlets forcing the water to spin around the tank. The outlet pushes debres towards the inlet that sucks it up to filter.

Then I also have a constant overflow out of the tank that goes straight into the drain.

I have no problem changing it, and I'm going to make it my top priority, I just want to understand why I'm doing it.


I'm reading through the articles. Thanks

In the mean time, I added 3 more bubblers(two extra airpumps I had lying around) all in one spot to create some pretty good ripples on the surface. (temporary until I get my power heads that is. I was under the impression that I didn't need them until I had reef elements that actually need flow, and not just oxygen.)

Surface skimming. The majority of the crap in your water Column will settle on the surface of the tank. So just moving that water up there around is NOT enough.. That is why you see all Serious Reef tanks with Top over flow skimmer boxes. By the water being removed from the surface allows fresh water up there for better gas exchange... I have used external filters before on smaller tanks and the top rim of the tank at the water level Would always get slime and Dirty constantly.
For a fish only tank get it cycled correctly and water movement at the top and you could keep the fish alive i think

 

[thatgamesguy]

Surface skimming. The majority of the crap in your water Column will settle on the surface of the tank. So just moving that water up there around is NOT enough.. That is why you see all Serious Reef tanks with Top over flow skimmer boxes. By the water being removed from the surface allows fresh water up there for better gas exchange... I have used external filters before on smaller tanks and the top rim of the tank at the water level Would always get slime and Dirty constantly.
For a fish only tank get it cycled correctly and water movement at the top and you could keep the fish alive i think

That makes sense, thanks for the information. I figured the drip overflow skimmer was good enough for the small amount of fish I have. Thanks, I'm going to get to it.

 

[Marchillo]

Agreed with the OP post. I think we are all just trying to help. Sometimes it's not sugar coated that way. We care about the fish and your success as well.

Hopefully you can work through this without killing the fish if you intend to keep them. Start gathering the right equipment (seems you have a plan) and do lots of water changes for now. I'd still urge you to return the fish if you can so it makes setting up right and cycling that much easier.

Keep posting and asking questions.

 

[thatgamesguy]

Thanks, I do appreciate the help, and I do love my fish. Its why I'm in the hobby.

I picked up about 54 pounds of dry rock and 25 pounds of live rock.

The dry rock has been sitting outside in the sun for roughly 6 months, it used to be live rock in a reef aquarium.


There are articles that suggest it can be cycled in just a tub of saltwater in 3 weeks, however phosphates may leach out, so they could take up to 6 months. Its either that or deal with the algae and add the rock sooner.

I'm thinking my best option is to cycle the dry rock the full amount of time, add the 25 pounds of live rock, build a protein skimmer/refugium (along with canister filter) to keep the tank more stable. (fish only tanks are supposed to be able to cycle with no rock at all, just a really good filtration system that I currently don't have)

I can't return the fish,maybe 2 (1 month old) I've had some for more than a year.

 

[Duke4life]

I can't return the fish,maybe 2 (1 month old) I've had some for more than a year.

Ummmm.... I thought the tank had only been setup 2 months? Have another tank?

 

[BigBlueTang]

Ummmm.... I thought the tank had only been setup 2 months? Have another tank?

Please outline why you cannot return the fish? I understand if you like them, but you can always buy them back once you are done... It will be a better habitat at the lfs, and then once you are done get the fish back..

Also, duke made a good point, how many tanks have you or do you have??

 

[CStrickland]

They say in the OP it was set up a year and they upgraded a couple months ago.

Not like return for credit, just give them to the store or someone else with a tank that they'll not suffer in until you get this sorted out. Your ammonia and nitrite levels indicate a serious problem with your bio filter. Its not a matter of tweaking your skimming or adding a refugium, it's basic stuff about how you set the tank up. IMO you should be sorting this out fishless. Under feeding them is not the answer to ammonia problems, they produce it by respiration too.

We can help you get on track, but I don't think it's a safe enviro for animals right now. 1.5 ppm ammonia is likely painful