Bad Advice From Birmingham Reef Store

[aumfc]

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http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1130647

I had purple "stuff" on my 10 month, fully stocked 24g nano glass. I told the guy a store here in Hoover and he said to give it some EM antibiotic. I asked if it was ok to put in the main tank and he said "oh yeah". SO I put it in last night, now all my snails are dead, one of three fish is dead, and all my coral (about 15) are dead. As soon as I saw I changed 50% of the water but it still looks cloudy and I'm afraid my two clowns will die.

My question is, what can I do about this? What should I tell the LFS? The coral alone was a good $250 when I bought it in very small frags about 8 months ago. Not to mention all the time and effort. Should I sue?

 

[JoeTSI]

Aquarium Imports or Aquarium Designs?

 

[stolaas]

WOW that is not good at all. I wouldn't sue yet, I would tell them about it and what happened and see if they will compensate for the loses. Being a LFS the should be able to replace most of your stuff for free since they should have so many frags and fish and should even give you better corals (more expensive then you had). They should realize the error on their part.

 

[Nitroq2]

This will not be popular, and I probably will become yours and severals beating post but its my thoughts on it. Anyway here is what you should do.

A. Don't rely on someone else to take care of your tank.
B. Don't take anyones advice without researching it.
C. Forget lawsuits that seems to be the go to for about everyone these days its a crying shame, and its costing me when you sue someone else. I am about sick to death of hearing "Can I sue", "I should sue", "lets sue". How about lets just be responsible.
D. Backup and read B again.

Sorry if it sounds harsh but its the truth, and alot of folks seem to think that EM tabs will kill the redslime and it does and for alot of folks its does so without the effects you mentioned. I think on this one even if you researched you would have gotten more that would have favored it. As for the fish store you questioned what to do, why not just let the guy know you had less than favorable results when you used it and he may rethink telling anyone else. I guess most LFS would be better to take the "I DONT RECOMMEND ANYTHING TO ANYONE APPROACH" and then most of us would be without tanks now or at least alot of us would. I ask often but I try to research. Then there are time when I do even more stupid things and I buy without asking, researching, or even questioning my purchases. Then I have things happen like now I have a bicolor blenny in my sump because he eats SPS. I am now going to be less $30 and someone will have a new fish cause I didn't research and that is just a tip off the iceberg. Sorry to hear about your loss.

EDITED AFTERWARD

( E. Follow the advice given on the other post as for carbon and water changes also note that the fellow who said lack of oxgen caused it I would agree. Your corals in those pics dont look happy but I wouldn't say they were dead yet either. As for bacteria, get a few scoops of sand from someone, and your bacteria will come back.)

 

[aumfc]

"Less than favorable results"? Losing my entire tank, hundreds of dollars, hours of my time is "less than favorable results"? No **** I shouldn't have listened to the guy but isn't that he's ****ing job? To know what the **** he's talking about? Sure, next time i'll know, but that doesn't change the fact that my family is crying downstairs because an employee at a local reef store said it would be ok to kill off all the bacteria in my tank. I didn't know it would kill it all, that's why I asked him. Sure I shouldn't have listened to just one guy. I know that now. I'm just curious, if you take your kid to a doctor and the guy says "here take this medicine, it will fix your kid", and you give her the meds and she dies, what do you do? Just shrug it off and say "damn, should have done more research"? Bull****. He is the professional, or is at least being sold as such. He should know that I shouldn't put an anti-biotic in a display tank with live-rock, coral, and fish.

 

[Nitroq2]

What if that same DR treated several thousand other kids with that same medicine and nothing ever went wrong? Does that make him totally responsible? Sometimes $hit happens. And before you ask no I have no affiliation with LFS of any sort and I can name you a couple that just out right dont like me.

 

[aumfc]

Sorry, still pretty ****ed off. I appreciate the post but no way it's my fault for trusting a guy that's supposed to know what he's talking about. While I'm at it, why the hell doesn't it say on the packaging not to use it in a saltwater tank because it may kill your live rock and sand and everything else? Shouldn't there be some warning? And like I said, I asked the guy if it was ok and he said yeah. How am I supposed to know not to trust him? I know that some LFS folks don't know as much as others, but I wouldn't expect them to kill my tank!

 

[aumfc]

So far I've heard from no one that thinks its a good idea to through EM in the main tank. 1 in a 1,000, ok. But right now it's more like 1 in 1. Does anyone else think that was a good idea? Knowing what he knew, should he have recommended that? A 24g tank with coral, fish and live rock doing fine, but had some purple "stuff" on the glass. Would you recommend throwing a couple EM tablets in the main tank with everything in it? When we get 100 yes's maybe that anology will work.

 

[Nitroq2]

I am not saying I would recommend that cure, I am only saying that alot of folks throw that cure out there and if properly done some folks have good results. There is no special training for an LFS its usually just someone with a passion much like you and me, and I wouldn't consider it a profession yet a business. Again I hate the fact that you lost your tank but again, I am not so sure the corals are dead, if you carbon them and do some changes they may come back. I seen what looked like maybe some xenia, some colt coral, and a cap. What all else was there? I can hook you up with some new frags of all of the above. Free of course, just make a meeting with the CARC and I will gladly help you get back on your feet if you lost them. As for the Zoanthids not sure I have what you had, but I can give you some small frags to get your going again and I am sure a few others here will help you get back on top.

 

[8BALL_99]

I have to agree with Allen on this.. It sucks and sorry about your tank.. But alot of people do use EM tablets to kill Cyano. Do I think its a good idea, NO. I think its an even worse idea in small tanks. I know of probably 30 cases of people using EM tablets.. I know of 2 people counting you that had a tank crash. So who's to say its bad advice.. Most people in this hobby have their own way of doing things. I tell everyone with Cyano to just leave it alone.. If you have good flow and clean water it will burn its self out after a while.. Some probably think thats bad advice lol.. But thats just how it is.. Almost nothing in this hobby has single right way to do it.. I dont think you can really blame the LFS.. They told you what they use. If you would have looked into it a little I'm sure you would have read about a tank crash or two. At the same time I'm sure you would have came across several others who use them..

If it makes you feel anybetter. I almost had a crash in my 180 using flat worm exit.. I've used it probably 10 times.. I know several others who have used it with NP at all.. Almost any LFS would probably recomend it. I even use to tell people to just follow the directions and you will be fine.. Last time I used it I lost 3 fish and a few corals.. Doesn't sound like much but it was over 300$bucks worth. Not to mention I did 45 Gallon water changes Everyday for a week and went through 3 gallons of Carbon to get the tank looking ok.. Even after all that it took months for the tank to fully recover. With all that I wouldn't blame someone else for the trouble.. I was the one that put it in my tank so its my fault. I did research it first though and knew that some people had problems.. I figured if I had 3 gallons of carbon and 30 gallons of saltwater mixed on hand I'd be fine.. lol wrong..

 

[TOYTEK]

If that store is the one I think it is, I know people who won't even use their free RO water, much less take advice from them without getting at least a second opinion. Sorry to hear about your loss, but I have to agree with Allen and 8Ball. The person that told you to use the EM is just a fellow hobbyist like the rest of us, and perhaps has seen good results with the EM in larger tanks, but not aware how easily you could overdose a small tank. There's no LFS employee school or anything that they have to go to to work there. I haven't got much, but I too will help with frags of anything you would like from my tank once you get this prob. corrected.

 

[DarthFred6996]

I use the free RO water from this store more than likely. What has been known to be wrong with it? I just assumed it was OK and have been using it for my WC weekly. I guess I should have tested the water first for nitrates and phosphates if that is the problem.

As far as the intitial problem, I prefer to go the "common sense" route when it comes to reef keeping. Antibiotics kill bacteria. Nitrobacter is a bacteria I want to keep. Antibiotics may kill my good bacteria and cause a major problem. CyanoBACTERIA remedies are antibiotics. Maybe I should not use remedies for cyanobacteria problems. I don't care what the bottle says. I don't care what the LFS employee says. I don't care what the LFS owner says. They can all tell me that this particular antibiotic does not hurt my biological filter or will not harm my corals. I don't listen to that. I care what my gut says. Don't get me wrong, though. If I hear something works from enough people that have no monetary motives for recommending it; I just MIGHT try it.

I am in no way saying this is your fault though. I have taken some bad advice before and ran with it. I learned from my mistake and became better at this hobby.

I ask myself "What caused this problem to begin with?" If you correct the cause the effect will go away. I had a problem with it and a correction in feeding habits and flow took care of it with no other treatment.

I have some softies that I will help you out with if you so desire. I just traded off all my purple mushrooms from this batch, but I will have some more in a month. I also have some pink xenia weeds I can give you RIGHT NOW!

In a couple of months I should have some candy cane to trade as well.

 

[aumfc]

Thanks again for the replies. I still say it's the LFS worker's fault. I know I should have done more research but he specifically said it was ok to use in my main nano tank.

I'm going down there at Noon and will get 30g more saltwater and maybe some cured liverock to setup a small tank in a RubberMaid bin for my one living creature left, assuming he's still alive when I get home. Do you think he will be ok in there with just clean saltwater, a pump, and a couple pounds fresh rock? How long will he be ok?

 

[stolaas]

Like many of the rest of us, there are many other options to take other then suing. I would go and talk to them. A nano shouldn't be hard to remake with a few frags that the LFS may donate with a kind gesture if you don't go in there and go nuts on them I had a damsel die when I first started this hobby so I went to the LFS that I bought it from and asked for a replacement (because I have read so many people on the net saying that a LFS should do this for you). He did replace it for me, but if it was a tang I dont think he would. Long story short, I would go talk to them first and find out if they would do anything.

 

[NicoleC]

Unfortunately, you have just learned what should be lesson #1 in this hobby:

The guys in the LFS usually don't know jack. They usually aren't "professionals," they are retail clerks making $6 an hour at best -- at worst, they are out to sell you something and don't care about the long term healthy of your tank. Dead fish means you will come back and buy more fish. That doesn't mean this fish store is bad or dishonest -- but it may mean they sell something that is supposed to a be a cure and so that's what they sell and they just don't know any better. Talking quietly and honestly with them about the effects may educate them. And will get you farther than a hissy fit, however much you may want to throw one... and I know the feeling!

(I have used this product successfully as a short term fix on a commercial tank I was taking care of by taking precautions against the side effects. But it's not a long term cure anyway.)

When you find those rare LFS that are honest, reputable, helpful, knowledgeable and genuinely interested in the health of the hobby, PLEASE give them all your business so they stay in business! There are gems out there... just not as many as we need.

Most folks learn this lesson the hard way. You will get much better answers on RC -- they may not always be correct but you have a better chance of at least hearing the other side of the story.

Lesson #2 is there are no quick fixes in a box at the LFS. (With the exception of a few life saving meds, but most of those meds are rarely on the shelves.) Remember, antibiotic means "anti life" -- use them with extreme caution!

Yes, get the tub set up with a heater and powerhead (and cover the powerhead intake) and move all your living inverts (snails and stuff) and fish over. Don't add any new rock right now. Remember to acclimate carefully to the new water. Please be sure you have surface agitation or several airstones running to help oxygenate that water.

Unless the tub is designed for water, only fill it about halfway up. 3/4 of the way if you double tub. And check for leaks before you do this! Lots of them are not water tight; I have had tubs fail with too much water in them. Don't even think about a Sterilite tub -- get one of the "soft" Rubbermaid tubs.

Consider the tub a home for 6 weeks, so you'll want to rig up your tank light over the tub if you have any corals left. Check at least daily for anything dead. If any of your corlas look partially alive, you may want to try fragging off any healthy tissue and putting that in the tub. You might save at least part of the coral that way.

While you are out, stop and get some Amquel+ Plus (that's two pluses) and an ammonia test kit if you don't have one. Test the water for ammonia daily and use the Amquel judiciously. Too much has a detrimental effect on oxygen and pH. Water changes are preferred over the Amquel if water changes can control any potential cycling action.

Meanwhile, in your main tank, run the tank like you have living stuff in it. Do a 100% water change now and then twice more at weekly intervals before reverting to regular maintenance. This should help remove any remaining medicine and allow the tank to cycle again, plus help any micro critters recover and repopulate. I'd leave it running with your old rock and stuff for about 6 weeks before returning livestock to the tank or adding anything new.

Good luck. A tank crash is always hard to deal with.

 

[Brack-Man]

Sorry for for your losses, and I hope everything works out...I agree your corals dont look completely "dead", if you can get them transfered into some clean water with cured LR most of them should pull through...

As for this "LFS", I use the free water all the time, I do test it first, and never found it to be totally horrible...have found it to have a spike every once in a while but not very high, and definitely not tap water bad...and as for the employees...there are only a couple of people that work there that I will ask questions and have any dealings with and still I do my own research either before or afterjust to make sure of what I'm getting into or whatever the case may be...My $0.02

 

[aumfc]

I went to the store and got about 25g fresh saltwater. I talked to the guy there who basically told me what some others have said. Shouldn't listen to just one person, probably can't do anything for me. He wasn't the owner but I'll try to catch him soon.

I also went to Wal-Mart and bought a 10g glass tank, a 15g hang on filter, a small heater, and a couple tank decorations to give the little clown hiding places.

At home I dumped maybe 1 1/2 gallons from the old tank into the new 10g. I checked the levels first and everything was 0. Then I put another 7g or so fresh saltwater. I put in the two decorations, a thermometer, the heater, a something-jet 900 pump, and the filter. I made sure the water was warm enough then put the clown in. He seems fine in there now and I think will be ok, but I'll check him often.

In the main tank, I haven't really done anything. I did maybe a 10% change at lunch and will do a much larger change tonight. I've got some macro algae and some live rock rubble in one of the back chambers and some charcoal in the other.

One question, how do I know for sure the coral is dead?

Also, all my levels look fine but the water is cloudy, so I'm guessing there is still some EM in there. Once the water is clear and the dead stuff is gone, how will I know when it's ok to put stuff back in?

Thanks again for the help. I don't expect much from the LFS but I think they could at least give me the two fish I lost for free. It's not that much to ask and it would keep me coming to them, at least for livestock. Any other suggestions?

 

[NicoleC]

New tank: check. (You now also have a good QT setup... a lecture for later when it comes to prevent other kinds of tank crashes.)

For future reference, clean, new PVC elbows and T's and such make excellent QT/hospital/emergency tank decor. They are easy to clean and sterilize, if necessary... plus are cheap!

Main tank: check. Consider the large water changes. The cloudiness is probably a bacterial bloom -- not directly related but sort of. It will go away on it's own. The water changes are to help get the water as clean as possible so the maximum amount of stuff survives.

Corals: It's hard to tell when they are really dead. I had a coral that I pulled off a rock 5 years and ago and gave away come back after being subjected to 32F water for 4 days. So, you might be surprised.

For softies, if the tissue is mushy, black or melted, it's dead. If you see any healthy tissue, cut it off and don't take any bad tissue with it. A sharp razor blade will do nicely, but do it outside the tank so there's no more coral slime in the tank than you have already. And no blood either if you slip. Let the frag rest in a bowl of water for about 10 minutes then put the healthy bit in the new 10g with as much water flow as possible.

Stony corals can recede pretty much all the way. Unless it has branches than can be lopped off, stony corals are hard to frag. If the flesh is hanging and slimy, it's probably dead. Swish it in a bucket of old tank water so all the slime falls away then back in the good water. (Don't do this if you have healthy polyps out -- use a turkey baster then.)

Looking at the photos, the zoanthids look fine and they are hardy buggers. The colt looks okay, the frogspawn looks stressed but fine. The sarcophyton... looks dead. But maybe not. The monticap looks fine and they are another hard one to kill.

If it were me, I'd give them all an iodine dip and give anything I could move a chance in the QT except maybe that sarcophyton -- leave him where he is; he looks like a goner but moving him will finish him off if he's "melted" like he looks. Just check frequently and siphon out anything that is dead flesh.

 

[kg4izw]

Hey aumfc,
Where are you in Birmingham?
I am over behind the Summit off hwy280.
I would be glad to come over and help you get your tank clear and running again if it is not too far away. Send me a PM if you are interested.

 

[TOYTEK]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10035001#post10035001 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DarthFred6996
I use the free RO water from this store more than likely. What has been known to be wrong with it? I just assumed it was OK and have been using it for my WC weekly. I guess I should have tested the water first for nitrates and phosphates if that is the problem.

I never got the specifics on their water, I just was told its not the best RO in town. On the other hand, my dad uses their water in his 12G nano and hasn't had any problems.