Battling organic phosphates: Best method??

[Zalick]

I've been battling algae for awhile now, presumably due to organic phosphates. Of all the tanks I've had over the years, I've never really had a "battle" with algae until now. I'm not sure what type of algae it is, but it blows/melts off the rocks pretty easy with a baster and I can scrub it pretty easy with a brush. it really just melts away, but comes back rapidly. It grows on the rocks, sand and coral skeletons.

My parameters are:
Dkh: 7.3
Mg: 1410
Ca: ~330
P: .003ppm (hanna ULR)
Ph: 7.95-8.15
No3: 0 on Salifert test kit

I know my Ca is a bit low. I tested last night before doing a water change and dosing if necessary.

I've been running GFO, but its spendy and becausemy water is already testing very low on inorganic phosphates, I'm reluctant to run it more frequently for fear of stripping the water too much.

I started with live rock, not dry rock. And I did some curing but not the best. In hindsight I should have us LaCL in my curing tub.

Tank is 4 years old.

My two hypothesis are:
1. The phosphates are getting taken up by the algae so fast that its not reaching my GFO and/or not in water long enough to test with my Hanna checker.
2. The phosphates are leaching straight from the rocks to the algae.

I've been doing manual removal which seems to help but I can't get the algae to lose its foothold.

Any ideas? I've debated using LaCL... I read through the long LaCL thread and have a bottle with a saline bag ready to go. I'm always fear trying to control something I cannot measure...

Thanks!

 

[reefgeezer]

Possibly a Cyanobacteria of some sort. Low inorganic nutrients & high dissolved organics tend to provide great conditions for its growth. Letting nitrate & even phosphate rise a little and reducing dissolved organics can help address it. Aggressive manual removal, a big initial water change and/or at least aggressive wet skimming, and aggressive use of GAC can speed up the resolution.

Cyano often kinda goes away on its own. You might wait it out, or just do small steps to resolve it unless it's hurting things... unless, like me, you just can't stand it! If organic phosphate is the issue, LC won't help. Save it for some other time.

 

[Dan_P]

If either or both hypotheses are correct, what would you do next?

 

[Zalick]

If either or both hypotheses are correct, what would you do next?

I'm not sure exactly.

If the phosphates are leaching from the rocks, I believe my only option is aggressive manual removal until the rock is depleted?

If the phosphates are actually in the water column and rapidly taken up by the algae, I need something to out compete the algae: again manual removal, maybe macro in my sump?

 

[TheCamaroShow]

I had this issue just slowly add rock and i started using phospate rx and it works very well

 

[mcgyvr]

Pics of said algae?...

 

[Dan_P]

If the phosphates are leaching from the rocks, I believe my only option is aggressive manual removal until the rock is depleted?

Is the growth all over or confined to the rock surface? If all over, would that be evidence against the rock surfaces providing a local source of PO4 to the nuisance growth?

If the phosphates are actually in the water column and rapidly taken up by the algae, I need something to out compete the algae: again manual removal, maybe macro in my sump?

Bacteria and algae do not require much phosphorous to live on. I don't have the impression that your aquarium is generating many grams of bacteria a day, so, if the absorption notion is correct, these organisms wouldn't be removing much PO4. If they are absorbing the PO4 so effectively that you can't measure it, maybe there isn't much being produced.

I don't think we have a strong case for a phosphate problem, but that doesn't help to understand what triggered or is sustaining the nuisance growth. John (Reef Geezer) suggested cyanobacteria. Have you looked on the internet for a picture of a cyanobacteria infestation like yours?

Dan

 

[Zalick]

Pics of said algae?...

Here is a pic. The consistency is almost like algae that is on deaths bed and just disolves. Yet it keeps growing.

Is the growth all over or confined to the rock surface? If all over, would that be evidence against the rock surfaces providing a local source of PO4 to the nuisance growth?



Bacteria and algae do not require much phosphorous to live on. I don't have the impression that your aquarium is generating many grams of bacteria a day, so, if the absorption notion is correct, these organisms wouldn't be removing much PO4. If they are absorbing the PO4 so effectively that you can't measure it, maybe there isn't much being produced.

I don't think we have a strong case for a phosphate problem, but that doesn't help to understand what triggered or is sustaining the nuisance growth. John (Reef Geezer) suggested cyanobacteria. Have you looked on the internet for a picture of a cyanobacteria infestation like yours?

Dan

It grows quickly on all the calcium carbonate surfaces and a little on some pumps but not really on the glass.

I only have 4 fish in about 375 total volume water and feed once a day. So I don't really over feed. I wouldn't imagine I'm adding that much phosphate to the water column.

I've been testing with the Hanna ULR checker for the last year and it always reads either 0 or 1, so about .003 ppm.

 

[Tastee]

I have a 9 month old tank and started fighting GHA 8 weeks ago. Initially I used Phosguard, but that didn't seem to do much for me, so I switched to LaCL (Phos Correx) for a couple of weeks on a dosing pump.

Unfortunately this inadvertently killed a Torch coral. It almost took out a Leather too, but I have saved that. I believe this was because my original Red Sea Phosphate Pro test kit kept reading 8 ppm Phosphate when I was really at 0, and continuing to dose LaCL kept the Phosphates at too low a level. So I would be careful with that and be sure you are confident in your Phosphate measurements.

I have now moved to NO3O4:-X as a longer term strategy, as my Nitrates are also a little high, and this is bringing them down and getting the GHA under control. My new Red Sea Algae Pro test kit seems to be reading more accurately.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[reefgeezer]

LC won't remove phosphate that is bound in organic compounds. Unless your test indicate free (inorganic) phosphate, I wouldn't take the risk.

The picture doesn't help much. But it's pretty easy to broadly identify the stuff.

Cyano: Can be one of several colors, brown, red, green, even blue - Grows in an opaque mat - Blows off the rock pretty easily - Doesn't have a lot of air bubbles in it and doesn't produce them.

Dino: Usually brownish - Grows in a snotty/stringy translucent mat - Blows off of the rocks easily - Generates air bubbles that become trapped in the mat

Algae: Doesn't blow off the rocks easily

Based on your description, I'd guess that you have a Cyano issue.

IMO, you have a balance issue rather than a phosphate issue... too many dissolved organics and too little inorganic nutrients. I've observed that Cyano and other bacteria thrive under these conditions. They have no competition.

Reducing the dissolved organic levels work every time for Cyano. Raising the inorganic nutrient levels to where a little algae grows will keep it mostly under control. A clean-up crew suitable to control the resulting algae brings everything back into balance. I really hate algae, but a little is better than uncontrolled Cyano/Dino.

 

[Zalick]

LC won't remove phosphate that is bound in organic compounds. Unless your test indicate free (inorganic) phosphate, I wouldn't take the risk.

The picture doesn't help much. But it's pretty easy to broadly identify the stuff.

Cyano: Can be one of several colors, brown, red, green, even blue - Grows in an opaque mat - Blows off the rock pretty easily - Doesn't have a lot of air bubbles in it and doesn't produce them.

Dino: Usually brownish - Grows in a snotty/stringy translucent mat - Blows off of the rocks easily - Generates air bubbles that become trapped in the mat

Algae: Doesn't blow off the rocks easily

Based on your description, I'd guess that you have a Cyano issue.

IMO, you have a balance issue rather than a phosphate issue... too many dissolved organics and too little inorganic nutrients. I've observed that Cyano and other bacteria thrive under these conditions. They have no competition.

Reducing the dissolved organic levels work every time for Cyano. Raising the inorganic nutrient levels to where a little algae grows will keep it mostly under control. A clean-up crew suitable to control the resulting algae brings everything back into balance. I really hate algae, but a little is better than uncontrolled Cyano/Dino.

Thanks for the info! In all the years I've been reading about algae, and the thousands of posts/articles, I've never seen it put in such easy terms as you just did. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

It does seem to fit in the cyano category more so than algae. My wife has a 1000x microscope, so I might have a look this evening. I've only experience red cyano, so this is new to me. Since you pointed me in this direction, I looked at reef cleaners ID chart and it most resembles Calothrix cyano. This would explain why my normal algae routine has not bee too effective. Thanks!

 

[reefgeezer]

... I looked at reef cleaners ID chart and it most resembles Calothrix cyano. This would explain why my normal algae routine has not bee too effective. Thanks!

You are welcome. I have dealt with that crap. I hate it. It sucks. It is a little different. The stuff I had hung onto the the substrate a lot better than regular old Red Cyano. Some would blow off, but not all. I still have some here & there, as well as Red Cyano that comes & goes in small spots. That said, my tank is heavily loaded and I feed a lot. I expect some.

I went all in to beat it!
1) Removing rocks that I could get to easily and scrubbing them with a toothbrush & peroxide. What I couldn't remove, & after the initial scrubbing, I blasted with a power head or scrubbed as much as possible with a stiff brush 3 or 4 times a week. I did not put peroxide in the tank though. I used a fine mesh filter sock to catch the stuff I blew off of the rock and removed it a couple hours later.
2) Adding a lot of GAC and changing it often.
3) Setting the skimmer to run very wet and adding new ASW to replace what it used. I shot for least a gallon per day. For a while it was more like 2.5 gallons and day. That proved to be too expensive and a PIA. The output of the skimmer was kinda like a light tea color rather than the dark stinky stuff. This takes a little effort and monitoring but I think it removes way more organics.
4) Doing a 30% initial water change after the rocks were scrubbed.
5) Adding potassium nitrate to get some inorganic nitrate in the system. I had a little phosphate so that wasn't an issue.
6) Starting dosing 20ml per day of vinegar to promote different bacteria to compete with the Cyano. This could also promote more Cyano, depending on the type, but it worked for me.
7) I added a clean-up crew. A Tiger Sea Urchin, some Trochus, Turbo, and Astria Snails, and some hermit crabs.

I still try to change about 5-10 gal of water a week but maybe actually get it done 1/2 the time. I've now stopped the GAC and the really wet skimming. I've continued the vinegar and nitrate dosing after the Cyano was beaten. I dose the potassium nitrate solution (stump killer) manually every week or two. I don't have to test now as I've done it enough to know how much to dose. I know it's time to dose it when I can go more than two or three days without wiping the glass. The vinegar gets added with a dosing pump, still at 20ml/day. This isn't enough to drive nutrients to zero very quickly, but it still provides some diversity to compete with the Cyano. This process also takes care or phosphates without GFO, Cheato, or anything else. According to my Hanna ULR, it stays .01 to .05 ppm in my heavily fed system.

Go slow. It can be beaten, but you'll need patience and some elbow grease.

 

[Dan_P]

Here is a pic. The consistency is almost like algae that is on deaths bed and just disolves. Yet it keeps growing.

It grows quickly on all the calcium carbonate surfaces and a little on some pumps but not really on the glass.

I only have 4 fish in about 375 total volume water and feed once a day. So I don't really over feed. I wouldn't imagine I'm adding that much phosphate to the water column.

I've been testing with the Hanna ULR checker for the last year and it always reads either 0 or 1, so about .003 ppm.

The picture you posted did not look anything like cyanobacteria.

Four fish in 350 gallons? Unless they are Tuna, it wouldn't be a believable claim that you have a nutrient issue.

 

[Zalick]

The picture you posted did not look anything like cyanobacteria.

Four fish in 350 gallons? Unless they are Tuna, it wouldn't be a believable claim that you have a nutrient issue.

I'm a slow stocker. I lost some fish during a QT that ended up being about 6 months long. Then life got in the way the last year or so and I have not begun stocking again...

I agree, it does not look like cyano that I've experienced in the past. It does look most like Calothrix when looking at the algae ID pics on reef cleaners.

 

[Dan_P]

I'm a slow stocker. I lost some fish during a QT that ended up being about 6 months long. Then life got in the way the last year or so and I have not begun stocking again...

I agree, it does not look like cyano that I've experienced in the past. It does look most like Calothrix when looking at the algae ID pics on reef cleaners.

A genus of cyanobacteria that hasn't infested my tank, yet

Well, there's many abatement approaches for cyanobacteria growth, maybe all placebos, but at least they make you feel a bit less helpless.

Good luck!

Dan