BB setup and zoas. A civilized discussion.

ficklefins

New member
I know I may be asking for trouble in starting this thread but I just wanted to find out if we could discuss this topic as civilized individuals.

I'm almost done getting my supplies so I will be moving my tank to its stand and out of my room. I wanted to go with a BB setup because I really like the clean look and have over-rated equipment for my tank size.

I wanted to discuss the beneficial/negative consequences of doing a Bare Bottom setup.

I know that zoas can handle a lot more gunk in the water than SPS corals can, but can they actually handle the extreme filtration that a BB setup has?

Can water be too clean for zoas to thrive?

Thanks for your input.
 
I'm also insterested about what the zoas experts would have to say about this topic as I just went BB with my new 75g set up.. I had to do an emergency take down of my 55g when my parent decided that they wanted to finish the basement before my wedding..

Inputs would be appreciated.. I've spoken with few individuals with BB and they seem to have good success with zoas..

Marvin
 
:confused: why do you think going bare bottom would be an extreme filtration method?

i think you'll be fine, as long as you dont run a heavy chemical filtration, or possibly any chemical filtration for that matter. a over rated skimmer will only perform better and pull out more skimmate if you have a heavy enough bioload.

i've seen lots of people go barebottom and use zoas to cover the starboard on the bottom. seems to work pretty well.

the only other thing i'd be concerned about is heavy flow, if you have something like 100x turnover in the main tank...i dont know if zoas like to be blown around that much since they are found mostly in low tide areas in the ocean.

most people that go bare bottom run all SPS tanks. the parameters for keeping an all SPS tank are alot different than keeping a softie tank. i've seen alot of people who run an all sps tank that is bare bottom, want something to cover the bottom so they introduce zoas with little success, this is mainly due to all the heavy chemical filtration they have in their sump to eliminate all trace nutrients so their SPS will color up more.

as long as you dont have heavy chemical filtration I think you'll be fine. i think thats the big thing to look out for rather than worrying about BB.

actually, i think going BB would help with the flow on the bottom and deterius collecting b/w the zoa colonies sitting on the bottom.

HTH
 
OH, one more thing....this is purely speculative though...

I wonder, that if you go BB, or DSB or whatever your reef floor flavor is....if when you have tons of zoa frags/colonies sitting on the bottom, with all of the peaks and valleys of rocks with all the deterius that accumulates b/w them, if this accumulation of deterius would be more prone in causing a mysterious fungus or other zoa disease to develop.

i've always kinda wondered this. it would kinda make sense though. deterius building up in small stagnet flow areas b/w colonies and such, and then some crazy fungus/bacteria able to grow in the tiny little stagnet space that is high in nutrients.

that would kinda worry me. and i'd make sure to install a closed loop system or something that has nozels that come up from the bottom of the tank, or a spray bar that lays on the bottom and pushes water out and b/w all those small spaces.
 
Nice write up Al.

This point here is what really interests me.

most people that go bare bottom run all SPS tanks. the parameters for keeping an all SPS tank are alot different than keeping a softie tank. i've seen alot of people who run an all sps tank that is bare bottom, want something to cover the bottom so they introduce zoas with little success, this is mainly due to all the heavy chemical filtration they have in their sump to eliminate all trace nutrients so their SPS will color up more.

as long as you dont have heavy chemical filtration I think you'll be fine. i think thats the big thing to look out for rather than worrying about BB.

This is exactly what I was wondering about. It isn't as much the BB setup as the chemical filtration.
 
yeah...as common as it is to run carbon these days, i'd just be very careful using it. only use a little at a time, and only run it for a couple of days, dont run it 24/7.

whatever you do, dont run Purigen (i think thats the one), that stuff will bleach out all your zoas. use extreme caution with things like ROWA, the -Zorbs and -Bans.

now that you are running BB, and things are already low nutrient, i think the reaction by adding one of these chemicals would be like 2x as strong as it would be with running a DSB or regular sand bed. so if you are used to running carbon for a couple of days a month, when you add carbon to a BB setup you may want to take it out in a day or so.

i used to run a very low nutrient setup, and after carbon was in more than a day i could see some of my zoas starting to lighten up, so i would take the carbon out right when i noticed that.
 
What do you mean by `chemical filtration'?

As far as I understand, BB method focused on the oversized skimmer, with some folks running ozone/uv to aid skimming.

Personally, I don't run anything I'd consider `chemical filtration' with my BB tank. While it is mainly Acropora-types, the zoanthids certainly don't seem to spread/thrive like they did with more nutrients/sandbed around. Then again, a year and a half later they are doing ok ... so they do fine in at least my BB.

IMO, BB's not the ideal setup for them [nevermind that zo frags all over the BB make a LOT more maintenance/siphoning/re-arranging to keep their area from becoming a detritus pit.
 
I am running a 10 gallon frag tank BB, but also run carbon (only using a Magnum 250 HOB with a canister full of carbon 24/7 for filtration/water movement, so they aren't getting blasted). The zoas don't seem to grow as fast as the zoas in my display (with DSB), but there are a number of other issues that could contribute to that. They all seem happy (but with perhaps less growth). There is a small layer of detritus on the bottom that I move around when i do a water change to remove some, but I leave some level of it in there. It is just a frag tank, though. Not sure if that helped at all...

FWIW, I run a DSB on my display and have no issues with acro coloring. I get some really nice colors out of the 10K AB 250W DE's. Many of my LPS (mostly challices) don't like it as much, and despite the fact that everything is yellow-hued due to the bulbs (VHO's don't really penetrate a whole lot over the MH), color is not an issue. I am battling a bryopsis outbreak that has come on strong onver the last three weeks (not a spot of any micro algae before this outbreak for the last two years...). Got a bigger skimmer:).
 
IMO, BB's not the ideal setup for them [nevermind that zo frags all over the BB make a LOT more maintenance/siphoning/re-arranging to keep their area from becoming a detritus pit.

i totally agree with the whole deterius pit thing. although, technically......this could happen with a sand bed also...and therefore would be a much worse problem b/c the sand bed would suck up those nutrients, and basically would slowly seep them back into the water. (notice i'm not mentioning anything about a DSB, i'm gonna refrain from commenting on that as i dont know enough about them).

this is a problem i am currently dealing with, b/c i lost my diamond sand sifting goby. while i had him, i couldnt put any small zoa frags on the sand or the fish would burry them in the sand. after he jumped out of the tank (go figure?? a sand sifting goby!? :confused: ) i got a little zoa frag crazy which basically covered my entire sand bed. two months later...bryopsis outbreak...and i still cant get rid of the darn stuff.

i kinda broke down my tank to clean most of it out a month ago, and i noticed that if i slightly stirred the sand bed alot of dark dirt would float up into the water. i did LOTS of water changes, and this still didnt help the situation any. my ultimate hypothesis (after reading alot of anthony calfo's articles) is the sand bed is polluted, and has got to be replaced now with a new sand bed. if i try to stir it up with sand sifters it will just release more nutrients into the water and make the algae worse.

my philosophy...if you are going to run a sand bed, is to do a shallow one, make sure you have good sand sifting snails and/or fish, and ALOT of them. make sure that at least ~75% of the entire surface area of the sand bed is UNCOVERED by corals rock (yes this seems extreme). my philosophy is if you can keep a good majority of the sand bed sufficiently turned over and clean, you will not have the problem of suspended nutrients building up in the sand bed, and in order to keep it turned over, you have to keep as many rocks/corals off the sand as possible to let those sand sifters go to work. to say the least...you gota be very creative with rock work.

in the new system i'm building, i plan to do a PVC support structure. so 75% of the rock work will be suspended at least 2inches off the sand, even in the back. i may even go 3 to 4inches off the sand bed to allow sufficient flow without blowing sand. shoot, i may even go BB in the back under the rock work, to keep sufficient flow, and sand in the front and sides only. this is hard to visualize, as its in my head the way i want to do it...and i'm not gifted in the realm of paint shop on the computer.

this is my philosophy, i'm not preaching it to anyone and i'm not saying its better than other peoples ways by any means. but this is how i was doing things, and will be doing things in the future after i set up my new system b/c i had tremendous success, even to the point where i couldnt get ANY macro algae to grow for 8months. needless to say it makes a zoa dominated tank rather tricky with the logistics, and placement...b/c a natural looking zoa environment is a sea floor covered in zoas.

with a BB tank, and placing a zoa like reef floor across the entire bottom...the key to doing this has got to be some sort of spray bar network under all the zoa colonies/frags in order to keep that deterius from building up and causing pollution. maybe even laying PVC pipe with holes (the spray bar network), and letting the zoas grow over top of the PVC pipes...which would take alot of patience though to get a good looking tank.

lastly....i think the best means of filtration (besides a skimmer), is natural filtration, nutrient export, and taking preventative steps to prevent nutrient pollution/buildup in the first place, is the key to success. once your sand bed is polluted, its gone IMO. theres no good way to get it clean again and not pollute your tank heavily.

i know alot about chemicals and biochemistry (no expert by any means)...and to put it simply, IMO I think alot of chemicals to reduce algae/nutrients are stripping the protective protein coat from alot of softie type corals, causing bleaching, stunting growth/size etc. but, this greatly depends on how you use those chemicals and the dosage/time you use them, and your personal tank chemistry, which is why you see such diverse responses with people's experiences with these chemcials....so its hard to say X-chemical will cause Y-response to Z-coral in every tank, b/c again everyones tank chemistry is different. but again, solely my opinion, anyone can disagree if they want...i'm not gonna argue it.

i'm not a biologist, or marine biologist by any means...so i'm gonna stop there... :rolleyes: sorry for the long post/ranting everyone, hope i didnt put anyone to sleep. :lol:
 
The main problem with zoas is that they collect detritus at their bases. You'll have to blow them off every couple of days. I have thousands of zoas in my 65g tall, and almost a dozen stony corals. There's a big tradeoff. They're not killing the stonies, but they are growing into them and shading the base. The tank's grown in now so I can't just take out a rock and frag off all the zoas. If you put harder waterflow, they'll just spread faster.
 
One of my Curiousities on BB for softies was the high amount of flow needed for this. And from what ive seen and read zoos and softies in general like a lower current As posted before they would live but would they thrive ??
 
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