BB SPS tanks.. What are we missing?

[brad65ford]

I know I'm missing something here. Been running bb for what feels like forever and love the look and ease of cleaning etc.. Some sps's grow like weeds and some don't, colors are fair but there always seems to be a major demand for water changes regardless of the p04/alk/cal/mag. I'm fine with doing WC's every week but it seems as though it isn't as needed for people with sand beds. What are us BB reefers missing, is the lack of denitrification from not having sand making the need for sooner water changes?

 

[jackson6745]

Bacteria

 

[reefmutt]

I've seem plenty of awesome, strictly bb, no sand anywhere reefs here on reef central, but i've also seen a lot of people struggling with bb..

the pattern i seem to see, (and i am biased because i will continue to use a remote sand bed in my next tank) is that people who go bb are real numbers checkers and very meticulous about testing, and very 'hands on' - this is all good and necessary..
but what i seem to come across often with people who run sand beds is "no3 po4 levels? well, i dont check them much, i guage the levels by looking at the health of my corals and the speed of algae build up on my front glass"

I agree with corn hulio (richard) who posted above, proper bacterial colonies..

i think that nothing beats a sand bed to naturally control and level off the potential nutrient peaks and valleys that tend to occur in a maturing reef tank..
obviously, its not necessary for a thriving tank, if you are on top of your levels, but i think the sand bed adds a beneficial cushion to a reef

 

[ryanrid]

I've seem plenty of awesome, strictly bb, no sand anywhere reefs here on reef central, but i've also seen a lot of people struggling with bb..

the pattern i seem to see, (and i am biased because i will continue to use a remote sand bed in my next tank) is that people who go bb are real numbers checkers and very meticulous about testing, and very 'hands on' - this is all good and necessary..
but what i seem to come across often with people who run sand beds is "no3 po4 levels? well, i dont check them much, i guage the levels by looking at the health of my corals and the speed of algae build up on my front glass"

I agree with corn hulio (richard) who posted above, proper bacterial colonies..

i think that nothing beats a sand bed to naturally control and level off the potential nutrient peaks and valleys that tend to occur in a maturing reef tank..
obviously, its not necessary for a thriving tank, if you are on top of your levels, but i think the sand bed adds a beneficial cushion to a reef

Well said.

 

[brad65ford]

reefmutt, thank you for taking the time to write back on this subject. You nailed it pretty well with the constant keeping track of the swings when running a BB system. I've always wanted to give a remove sand bed a try. Would you care to show and or explain what you have done? I'm assuming you like running a sand bed versus no sand? Hope to hear more from others that were BB and added some type of remove sand bed for easy removal etc..

Also it seems its must that one would have to use some type of p04 remover when running a sand bed, is this true as well. Personally i do not feel comfortable with GFO or other similar products also another reason i'm running a BB system my P04 runs in between .02 and .03 which my most of my SPS's seem to enjoy.

 

[d0ughb0y]

I have a 60 BB. 10 gal wc every two weeks. I used to do 15 gallons wc once every 3 months but noticed slower coral growth. I only use a skimmer and filter sock. Nitrates and phosphates undetectable. Algae spots on glass starts to appear after 3-4 days. Bioload is on the light side (7 fishes) and do not overfeed.

What BB is missing is bacteria, cyano bacteria that is.

 

[brad65ford]

d0ughb0y, I don't have the article link but there was a study on bacteria count in multiple different systems. Not sure what exactly jackson6745 is stated but it is a fact that there is less bacteria in the water column running a bb then a sand system be it may good or bad.

 

[mhucasey]

I've seem plenty of awesome, strictly bb, no sand anywhere reefs here on reef central, but i've also seen a lot of people struggling with bb..

the pattern i seem to see, (and i am biased because i will continue to use a remote sand bed in my next tank) is that people who go bb are real numbers checkers and very meticulous about testing, and very 'hands on' - this is all good and necessary..
but what i seem to come across often with people who run sand beds is "no3 po4 levels? well, i dont check them much, i guage the levels by looking at the health of my corals and the speed of algae build up on my front glass"

I agree with corn hulio (richard) who posted above, proper bacterial colonies..

i think that nothing beats a sand bed to naturally control and level off the potential nutrient peaks and valleys that tend to occur in a maturing reef tank..
obviously, its not necessary for a thriving tank, if you are on top of your levels, but i think the sand bed adds a beneficial cushion to a reef

I also agree with this. In my opinion a bare bottom tank has less places for nutrient spikes to be absorbed, and not enough surface area for bacteria to proliferate on.

They can be used and some have been very successful, but you really have to keep on top of them. Every tank is different, and I've seen all kinds of approaches work.

 

[d0ughb0y]

That's probably right. If you are running BB and still have nitrate and phosphate, then you just need to figure how to eliminate/reduce the source rather than adding more stuff to export them. This applies whether sand is used or not.

 

[reefmutt]

hey Brad, i do like using a sand bed but not in the display.
It's so much easier to keep the display clean with a bare bottom.

personally, i think that using a sand bed is best, period... i know that'll set some people off.. its my personal opinion and also my experience..

my old tank which is on page 31, i think, of the all sps tanks thread had 3 sumps, one for settling out crud, a fuge with dsb and cheato and then the final sump where the skimmer and return pump were.
it was a simple design: water fell into the first sump from the display and passively passed through each section before returning to the tank. each sump was positioned slightly higher than the next. the fuge was lit by a 250 mh.

the main problem with the dsb, is that it tends to stop functioning properly after a few years, as it gets more and more filled with detritus..

my next build, which will start shortly- my stand is in and the tank should arrive next week- will have what i'm calling (for lack of a better term) a 'modular sand bed' in the sump.

i plan to somehow lay the sand bed down in porous containers- i'm thinking maybe those breeder nets that have a square plastic structure surrounded by a net. this will allow me to have a partitioned sand bed which can then have sections removed at regular intervals and replaced with fresh sand. this will maintain a balance of established sand bed with new sand bed all the time. this way, the send bed never really gets old and one never has to ever change out the whole thing..

i've heard that others on RC have done this but i haven't seen a thread about it... i haven't really looked for one, mind you...

because this system will have a smaller footprint than my last tank, i will probably also keep frags above the sand bed, but i will suspend whatever shelving i use for frags above the sand so as not to smother it.

im hoping to have a sand bed at least a third the size of the display tank footprint.. probably 4 inches in depth, fairly fine crushed coral..

 

[BrentH]

interesting now i feel better about using sand ...even though its about 1' layer it deff britens up the tank .....i was actually thinking of removing it but now im skepticle

 

[david_lee]

Would a 1" or under sandbed have any benefit over BB?..

 

[biggles]

Would a 1" or under sandbed have any benefit over BB?..

A very large increase in the surface area available for bacteria to colonize.

 

[allsps40]

I feel a remote deep sand bed in an unlit area is very beneficial to a reef tank. Being remote and if done correctly there will be very little waste build up in the sand, will reduce NO3 and PO4 levels and add to the not just the bacterial levels but diversity as well. Keep in mind that corals feed on bacteria as well so the fauna and micro fauna of a deep sand bed will in theory benefit the corals as well. My next reef system whenever I am able to do another one, will have a remote deep sand bed as well as a large fuge with it's own sand bed, the display will however have the fake sand bed just for the look.

 

[reefmutt]

The shallow sand bed certainly provides extra surface area for bacteria to colonize but it doesn't really provide the denitrification that a deeper sand bed provides. I think a deeper sand bed is more effective at stabalizing the tank and longer acting than a 1 inch bed..
It's the deeper levels of a DSB where oxygen levels are low that really grow the nutrient reducing bacteria..

 

[jason angel]

the main problem with the dsb, is that it tends to stop functioning properly after a few years, as it gets more and more filled with detritus..

my next build, which will start shortly- my stand is in and the tank should arrive next week- will have what i'm calling (for lack of a better term) a 'modular sand bed' in the sump.

i plan to somehow lay the sand bed down in porous containers- i'm thinking maybe those breeder nets that have a square plastic structure surrounded by a net. this will allow me to have a partitioned sand bed which can then have sections removed at regular intervals and replaced with fresh sand. this will maintain a balance of established sand bed with new sand bed all the time. this way, the send bed never really gets old and one never has to ever change out the whole thing..

Hi reefmut and others. This is my first tank that I have run BB. My last tank had in-tank DSB and I also am starting to think that my colours can be improved with the addition of a sand bed. I like the post referring to a modular sand bed, but was thinking maybe some short 1' long sections of say 6" pipe, capped at one end, then filled to a couple of inches short of top, and placed (cap end down obviously), in sump. This would stop detritus build up in the containers, and possibly allow for the individual DSB's to be replaced individually after a few years..
Why do you suggest porous containers reefmut? Wouldn't providing oxegenated water to all sides of the modular DSB reduce the size of the oxygen deficient area?
Do you or others think that say 6 of theses modular 8" DSB's i described would in time provide an amount of beneficial bacteria that would be beneficial to a 250g system? Or is it a waste of time?

 

[Pederreefnerd]

Hi Brad,

I run my tank with 1 cm(about half an inch?) and I add live bacteria from Dr Timms and KZ.
My tank is thriving, and everywere on my substrate there are thousands of small featherworms - beautyfull white.

So, a litle bit of sand does the trick for me, my tank, and the eye of the beholder.

Best of luck to u

 

[reefmutt]

Hi Brad,

I run my tank with 1 cm(about half an inch?) and I add live bacteria from Dr Timms and KZ.
My tank is thriving, and everywere on my substrate there are thousands of small featherworms - beautyfull white.

So, a litle bit of sand does the trick for me, my tank, and the eye of the beholder.

Best of luck to u

it's all about nutrient control and perhaps more importantly, nutrient stability.. like all things in an sps tank, stability is key..
if one can keep nutrients controlled and stable, any sand depth will work.
but i think that the dsb simply allows for easier control of nutrients and simplifies the stability aspect.

brad, to answer and earlier overlooked question of yours, like most of the nutrient reduction strategies, the dsb works better for no3 than po4 but with proper husbandry like solid skimming, good wcs and not overfeeding, po4 can be controlled..
having said that, back in the early 00s, when gfo started to hit the market, i noticed a jump in growth after starting to use it- back then super low nutrient systems were not the norm so adding gfo was more likely to drop po4 to a good level, rather than shocking the system by removing it completely.

allsps40, i agree, the sand bed provides a compliment ecosystem to the main tank. a whole class of microfauna can grow and reproduce there. i'm no biologist, but i assume that this extra element can only benefit the system as a whole, providing it is properly maintained.. it adds more than just no3/po4 control, imo, it is more natural, more like the actual ocean environment that we are trying to recreate in our homes..

jason angel, from your pipe description for a modular dsb, would you end up with 12 inch high pipes with a 6 inch diameter, filled to about 10 inches with sand? i'm not sure i understood your description..
if so, i don't see why this wouldn't work, although i dont think that depth is necessary to achieve the denitrification.

the porous containers would be placed side by side, right up against each other so that there would effectively be no water movement around them, just along the top surface. my rational for this is that although the sand bed would be modular in design, it would still act as one large sand bed since each section of sand would still communicate, so to speak, with the other sections.
maybe it is over thinking the concept, but i think that this method would allow for better transmission of microfauna and bacteria between sections and would also allow for quicker colonization of the newly introduced sections of sand.

 

[hobbzz]

The shallow sand bed certainly provides extra surface area for bacteria to colonize but it doesn't really provide the denitrification that a deeper sand bed provides. I think a deeper sand bed is more effective at stabalizing the tank and longer acting than a 1 inch bed..
It's the deeper levels of a DSB where oxygen levels are low that really grow the nutrient reducing bacteria..

This. I'll try to find it, but Randy Holmes-Farley was talking about this a while ago. It takes a minimum of two square feet, of at least six inch depth, to add any kind of denitrification. It can't be twenty square feet if its only one inch deep, it simply doesn't work that way.

As far as more room for bacteria to colonize, the rock should provide plenty.

 

[Patrick Cox]

Umm, sand.