Blue Jaw Trigger Issue

[goat585]

I just purchased this male and female blue jaw trigger fish about a week ago. I added them to my quarantine tank. They seemed to be eating and acting normal until I noticed the male this morning. His eyes are cloudy, had white specs on him, fins seem to be rotting and is not eating. Hie is breathing semi rapidly. At first it looked like advanced ich but maybe it is brook or velvet. I did a fresh water dip earlier today. I can not get any medicine until tomorrow. The female is eating and active. She did look like she had a couple of dots on her but otherwise seems okay. The male seems like something is shedding off of him. Here are a couple of pictures. I will grab whatever I can in the morning to try and help. Can somebody make an ID of what it is? Even if he does not make it I want to medicate her ASAP.

Tank parameters are 1.020, temp 78 and ammonium, nitrite and nitrate are zero

Thanks

 

[Mrscribbled]

I would use a formalin treatment. Fresh water bath is of no help. Hopefully Mr tuskfish chimes in the morning.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I'm not great with pics, but this fish really looks like he's in trouble. Even the cloudy eye is visible.The eye problem is often caused by flukes and a heavy infestation of flukes can cause all sorts of secondary problems. The peeling skin is a usually sign of brooklynella; but I doubt that this fish would have lasted this long with brook, if so--he'd be near death. I agree with Mrscribbled, FW baths don't help much of anything. They can reveal flukes or give some immediate relief for velvet---but the FW really doesn't solve anything.

Velvet is also possible, but I'd expect the female to have symptoms too.

Ich seems to be a big part of whats going on with the fish; but that's just my best-guess. I would treat for flukes with Prazi-Pro; A very safe wormer. PP is reef safe, except for featherdusters. The only med that is, (IMO) and I treat all my fish with it. I'd also treat for ich, there are a couple of options, but copper (I like Cupramine) will take care of velvet too. Don't waste time and money on any of the ich cures at the LFS, especially the meds that say they are "reef-safe". there is no reef-safe ich cure. You can use PP and Cupramine together; I would in this case, I don't think the fish has a lot of time. I'd get some Maracyn I & II. You will likely have some secondary infections. If you lose the male, continue with the regimen for the female and don't put her in the DT for at least 6 weeks, including 4 weeks of copper treatment. ALL of the parasites mentioned are very contagious. I'd read a few of Snorvich's ich stickies and let us know when you're ready to start treatment. There are some tricks with cupramine that make it safer---approved by the mfg too.

All of my comments are just IMO & IME; but I think I'm in the right area. Whatever the outcome, you'll be glad you used a QT Good luck!.

 

[goat585]

I'm not great with pics, but this fish really looks like he's in trouble. Even the cloudy eye is visible.The eye problem is often caused by flukes and a heavy infestation of flukes can cause all sorts of secondary problems. The peeling skin is a usually sign of brooklynella; but I doubt that this fish would have lasted this long with brook, if so--he'd be near death. I agree with Mrscribbled, FW baths don't help much of anything. They can reveal flukes or give some immediate relief for velvet---but the FW really doesn't solve anything.

Velvet is also possible, but I'd expect the female to have symptoms too.

Ich seems to be a big part of whats going on with the fish; but that's just my best-guess. I would treat for flukes with Prazi-Pro; A very safe wormer. PP is reef safe, except for featherdusters. The only med that is, (IMO) and I treat all my fish with it. I'd also treat for ich, there are a couple of options, but copper (I like Cupramine) will take care of velvet too. Don't waste time and money on any of the ich cures at the LFS, especially the meds that say they are "reef-safe". there is no reef-safe ich cure. You can use PP and Cupramine together; I would in this case, I don't think the fish has a lot of time. I'd get some Maracyn I & II. You will likely have some secondary infections. If you lose the male, continue with the regimen for the female and don't put her in the DT for at least 6 weeks, including 4 weeks of copper treatment. ALL of the parasites mentioned are very contagious. I'd read a few of Snorvich's ich stickies and let us know when you're ready to start treatment. There are some tricks with cupramine that make it safer---approved by the mfg too.

All of my comments are just IMO & IME; but I think I'm in the right area. Whatever the outcome, you'll be glad you used a QT Good luck!.

Thanks for your opinion. This came on fairly quickly and caught me off guard. Every fish I bring into quarantine goes through a prazi pro treatment so there is prazi pro in the tank right now. I have been debating on using copper or hypo as well. I did bring the salinity down some yesterday in case I wanted to go the hypo route. I agree with you to go with copper in case there is some velvet involved. I think this is a very bad case of ich but it confused me with how quickly it came on. I have some bacterial meds on hand.

I learned the hard way so everything is quarantined for 12 weeks before it goes into my main system.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I sure am no authority on hypo: but I've read so many accounts of hypo failing to eliminate ich that I would never use it. There is simply too much room for error and many of the folks using hypo are new hobbyists: a bad combination. I have a feeling that some strains are becoming immune to the current suggested SG of 1.009.

You sure aren't the only one who learned the value of a QT. I had to tear apart a 24o years ago....never again. I'm always amazed at the "new hobbyists" threads that ask for equipment lists; usually there is never a mention of a QT. IMO, this may be the single biggest reason for the high turnover rate in our hobby.

 

[alprazo]

I agree with mrtuskfish on every point. Hypo in theory will reduce metabolic energy expenditure in your fish so it may be beneficial. This fish sounds near death, and I posted a salvage protocol for this type of situation in the past. Do a search. Without immediate intervention I feel that your fish will be dead by morning. Even with heroic measures, it may be too late.

Actually here it is.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2240378&highlight=salvage

Good luck, and treat the other for velvet.

 

[sushi4u]

I agree with mrtuskfish on every point. Hypo in theory will reduce metabolic energy expenditure in your fish so it may be beneficial. This fish sounds near death, and I posted a salvage protocol for this type of situation in the past. Do a search. Without immediate intervention I feel that your fish will be dead by morning. Even with heroic measures, it may be too late.

Actually here it is.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2240378&highlight=salvage

Good luck, and treat the other for velvet.

Thanks alprazo for that link to decreasing metabolic demands. I find that even with some heroic measures i find myself also struggling in salvaging whats left of my fish.

 

[achillsohales]

For the future there are two products by seachem which can be used in a reef that do work. One is metronidizole for ich, brook, velvet. Other is kanaplex which is used for popeye dropsy and fluke doesnt really work for fluke but these medications work because you add them directly to the food so it works like human medications. But needs to be used in early signs.

 

[b0bab0ey]

For the future there are two products by seachem which can be used in a reef that do work. One is metronidizole for ich, brook, velvet. Other is kanaplex which is used for popeye dropsy and fluke doesnt really work for fluke but these medications work because you add them directly to the food so it works like human medications. But needs to be used in early signs.

I'm sorry but this is just bad advice. Metro works well for internal parasites, but is mostly ineffective against external ones like s/w Ich & Velvet. Kanaplex is basically kanamycin, an antibiotic which should not be used in the presence of corals. Even soaking it in fish food would make me nervous. I can't even begin to imagine what would happen if some of that stuff got on a coral.

FWIW, Metro is known to be very harsh on fish. I consider Metro a measure of last resort, even in a QT environment.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I'm sorry but this is just bad advice. Metro works well for internal parasites, but is mostly ineffective against external ones like s/w Ich & Velvet. Kanaplex is basically kanamycin, an antibiotic which should not be used in the presence of corals. Even soaking it in fish food would make me nervous. I can't even begin to imagine what would happen if some of that stuff got on a coral.

FWIW, Metro is known to be very harsh on fish. I consider Metro a measure of last resort, even in a QT environment.

+1
There is no such thing as a reef-safe ich cure. If there was, it would be announced in every corner of the hobby. It's the Holy Grail of SW disease/parasite control and it hasn't been found yet.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Bacterial infection can be secondary but the immediate cause of death.