Bubble Scrubbing and the Red Bug Scourge

[Orcus Varuna]

Sometimes internet trolling is just too much fun.... [MENTION=286110]Bpb[/MENTION] bubble scrubbing eliminates red bugs? Right?


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[Bpb]

In all seriousness here. Orcus Varuna, and some other friends were discussing this. I expected there would be HEAVY disagreement, and even some eye rolls and perhaps some catty comments. I can handle those. I dish them out plenty.

Much like the "œway too soon," and "œway too bold" predictions that college football analysists make in the off season, I'll make my own.

Way too bold statement

Nano Bubble Scrubbing Cured my red bug infestation.

I'm not a doctor, PhD, or a specialist in any scientific field, but I consider myself a learned man of sorts. And I am familiar with the saying "œcorrelation does not denote causation." I realize that the skeptic will say "œjust because you began nano scrubbing and the bugs disappeared, does not mean the nano scrubbing cured them".

But....all the same.

I have had a wicked acro red bug infection for the greater part of the last year. Virtually zero PE on anything and poor colors (which I may have unfairly blamed on lighting, I'll admit). After 8, yes 8 rounds of double strength interceptor, the bugs prevailed. I decided to just live with them.

Enter nano scrubbing. I know I'm late to the party on this one but I decided to hop on board. 6-8 weeks in now, and I cannot find a single red bug. Matter of fact I haven't seen a single one in over a month. And I've been zooming with macro lenses. Looking daily. Not a single red bug to be found. And the PE I'm getting now is tremendous. Polyps out in acros I had never seen them on.

So my hypothesis is this. The nano scrubbing has created such a heavy nightly sliming event that the acros have physically shed the red bugs in sufficient numbers that the wrasses have picked them off or they've died without their host. And it has happened to enough of a degree that they've failed to reproduce any further.

Discuss.


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[Orcus Varuna]

In all seriousness here. Orcus Varuna, and some other friends were discussing this. I expected there would be HEAVY disagreement, and even some eye rolls and perhaps some catty comments. I can handle those. I dish them out plenty.

Much like the "œway too soon," and "œway too bold" predictions that college football analysists make in the off season, I'll make my own.

Way too bold statement

Nano Bubble Scrubbing Cured my red bug infestation.

I'm not a doctor, PhD, or a specialist in any scientific field, but I consider myself a learned man of sorts. And I am familiar with the saying "œcorrelation does not denote causation." I realize that the skeptic will say "œjust because you began nano scrubbing and the bugs disappeared, does not mean the nano scrubbing cured them".

But....all the same.

I have had a wicked acro red bug infection for the greater part of the last year. Virtually zero PE on anything and poor colors (which I may have unfairly blamed on lighting, I'll admit). After 8, yes 8 rounds of double strength interceptor, the bugs prevailed. I decided to just live with them.

Enter nano scrubbing. I know I'm late to the party on this one but I decided to hop on board. 6-8 weeks in now, and I cannot find a single red bug. Matter of fact I haven't seen a single one in over a month. And I've been zooming with macro lenses. Looking daily. Not a single red bug to be found. And the PE I'm getting now is tremendous. Polyps out in acros I had never seen them on.

So my hypothesis is this. The nano scrubbing has created such a heavy nightly sliming event that the acros have physically shed the red bugs in sufficient numbers that the wrasses have picked them off or they've died without their host. And it has happened to enough of a degree that they've failed to reproduce any further.

Discuss.


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I'm actually intrigued by this as a means of control, as I don't think it's far fetched to think promoting a natural defense is assisting with the removal of red bugs from the polyps. We actually use this principle all all the time in medicine. Half the battle in fighting disease is promoting an overwhelming immune response. Do I think scrubbing has "œcured" the problem in your tank no. But I do think removing redbugs from the polyp base with excessive mucus production could be an unexpectedly positive side effect for sure. I am interested to see the discussion this generates.


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[Bpb]

Agreed. I feel like a cure has an immunity necessity which obviously the acros aren't immune. But they're certainly not anywhere to be found


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[reefmutt]

this is extremely interesting!
the only way to know for sure if you were successful would be to stop and wait a couple months to see if the population rebounds..
I absolutely love the concept..
I wonder what effect it would have on aefw...

 

[Dsekula]

I have some questions on this whole concept.
-First what is the goal, bubbles in general or an increase in DO?
-does anyone else check their DO? Mine runs pretty high to begin with (7- 7.5) anyone willing to compair? Would super saturated be any better or worse?
- could this be achieved with a o2 reactor? Just a canaster with a fan and o2 beeing run through with water the same as a basic co2 reactor. But maybe more efficient? Maybe 24-7 but at a lower nonvisable rate during viewing hours (less swing=more stability is usually good for a reef)?
-has anyone dropped their temp or salinity slightly to maximize the effects? Not daily just slowly dropped to a slightly lower temp and/or salinity.
-Maybe try this in a qt with hyper for beginning stages of parasites and such to promote healing naturally?

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[Bpb]

I have some questions on this whole concept.
-First what is the goal, bubbles in general or an increase in DO?
-does anyone else check their DO? Mine runs pretty high to begin with (7- 7.5) anyone willing to compair? Would super saturated be any better or worse?
- could this be achieved with a o2 reactor? Just a canaster with a fan and o2 beeing run through with water the same as a basic co2 reactor. But maybe more efficient? Maybe 24-7 but at a lower nonvisable rate during viewing hours (less swing=more stability is usually good for a reef)?
-has anyone dropped their temp or salinity slightly to maximize the effects? Not daily just slowly dropped to a slightly lower temp and/or salinity.
-Maybe try this in a qt with hyper for beginning stages of parasites and such to promote healing naturally?

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Having higher levels of dissolved O2, and improved (increased) PH (generally improving gas exchange) is the original and primary goal of nano scrubbing as it was first introduced. For this to occur at all one must have a fresh air source for the air pump, or inject pure O2 through the wooden airstone.

As I said this was the primary and original goal. But not the only benefit. I don't enjoy the benefits of this at all, as I don't have an O2 tank and regulator, nor do I have the means to run fresh air to the pump.

I run a soda lime reactor on my skimmers Venturi to remove some of the co2 injected through skimming and it stabilized my ph at 8.3. Perfect.

The secondary benefit in scrubbing comes in the form of the physical response to bubbles. The tiny bubbles will contact the acro tissue all over and cause an extreme and immediate sliming episode. If you've seen it in action it looks like an acro colony is shedding a very thick layer of mucous.

The benefits to that are improved nutrient uptake, detritus removal, Improved respiration....and back to my original post, physically trapping and removing pest copepod red bugs. This has never to my knowledge been an advertised benefit of scrubbing but appears to be one I am directly observing on my own tank.


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[reefmutt]

Sorry.. I won’t delete this post but I wrote it before reading the above post completely.. so, a little repetitive..

I think it’s is more the sliming of the corals when microbubbles are introduced into the aquarium.
The bubbles irritate the coral or maybe the bubbles indicate to the coral a change in tide which makes the corals slime up.. not sure why bubbles make acros slime up but hey certainly do..
But it’s the slime production which carries the bugs away from the coral as the slime sloughs off.
Where the bugs go is a question.. I guess some would be skimmed out.. I would think that they could make it back to the acros if not c removed from the tank..

 

[Bpb]

Yes I would think the same, but I do have 3 very active wrasses that I would not be the least bit surprised if they were preying on them. I can sit there and watch my sixline wrasse hover over a colony like a search and rescue chopper and just pick them off with surgical precision.


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[Dsekula]

I guess I'm thinking of the broad spectrum effect of higher o2 in general not just on an acro tank. Or maybe adding a few hrs of micro bubble qt for new corals to shed potential pests replacing more lengthy and expensive qt setups espically if you have a good source where your 99% sure the piece is clean (never 100% in my book)Do micro bubbles make all or most coral slime? If so would the effect in a mixed reef be more like mass chemical warfare?

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[Dsekula]

Also [MENTION=286110]Bpb[/MENTION],
Congratulations on having this work for you, I've read some of you posts of the on going red bug battle. Please understand my questions are based on your good experiences and me potentially adding some more acro frags to my mix and beeing prepared if something goes very wrong.

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[Bpb]

In my observation. It's only the stonies that slime. I've not observed it in any other species I keep (acans, leptastrea, zoas, Gorgonians, lobophyllia, aiptasia lol). I don't think I'd REPLACE a regular quarantine with it, but definitely use it in conjunction with regular medications.

I mention the acropora sliming so specifically because red bugs are an acropora specific parasitic copepod that aren't known to inhabit any other genus of coral


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[Dsekula]

In my observation. It's only the stonies that slime. I've not observed it in any other species I keep (acans, leptastrea, zoas, Gorgonians, lobophyllia, aiptasia lol). I don't think I'd REPLACE a regular quarantine with it, but definitely use it in conjunction with regular medications.

I mention the acropora sliming so specifically because red bugs are an acropora specific parasitic copepod that aren't known to inhabit any other genus of coral


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Oh I understand the slime acropora red bug connection..
My real underlying concern was that should I ever bring in an acro that later showed red bugs, could i potentially treat a mixed reef like this.
And later if I was say frag swapping with a friend etc where I was confident of the source. Instead of my full 30day qt maybe do this in place in conjunction with some dips for say flatworms and general iodine etc and do a shorter qt? for more sensitive speciments where I'd be attempting to match light and flow exactly and potentally continue stressing the coral just as it settels in to the qt at 30days.

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[Bpb]

Bubble Scrubbing and the Red Bug Scourge

After making my bold statement I'll still follow with I wouldn't in good faith recommend replacing the normal interceptor treatment for red bugs and Bayer for flatworms with a 6 week minimum treatment period. I just can't recommend that anyone skip that despite my way too bold claim. Even if I don't do it myself. I've had flatworms and red bugs. They're so much more prevalent than people think and I'd wager to say half the people with acropora in their waters have one or both of those and may not even know it.

But again, all the same. I started scrubbing, and haven't seen a single red bug since.

Flatworms are another matter entirely. Red bugs are much easier to live with than flat worms. Flat worms will destroy a tank quickly.


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[reefmutt]

Yes I would think the same, but I do have 3 very active wrasses that I would not be the least bit surprised if they were preying on them. I can sit there and watch my sixline wrasse hover over a colony like a search and rescue chopper and just pick them off with surgical precision.


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Yes.. can't underestimate the predators. I recently added two baby yellow wrasses- about 1 1/2 inches. I have never seen two more active acropora scavengers..
I've had adult yellow wrasses that were not nearly as active at picking over acropora.
Fish alter their behavior as they mature.. I'm wondering if this may be part of the missing link in aquariums..
In the wild there is a constant supply of everything from tiny to large predators. The tiny ones being more capable and perhaps more interested in getting in amongst the branches of corals... in any given aquarium, we only have certain predators at a certain level of maturity..
Bob, can you detail your full method for using and producing the micro-bubbles?

 

[Dsekula]

[MENTION=286110]Bpb[/MENTION]
Do you have experience with flatworm exit? This is what I've been using to dip and with a turkey baster, it's worked for flatworms in general but do you know if aefw are any different? Generally I do a concentrated dip and blow the mix into all nooks and crannies and if there are worms they fall out and start dieing immediately. Then move the piece to untreated qt. I've yet to have them reappear after this but I still do a second dip a week later. I also generally don't deal with the source once I have issues like this.
So I know we practice different things than we recommend at times . my thinking was that maybe between this an inteceptor dip and a general iodine type dip and then adding bubble to the uuntreated qt I could be relatively sure I'm avioding coral pests at which point it could be added to a fallow system or you roll the dice on fish parasites depends on preference I guess.
Not looking for a recomendation, just sharing though process. My thoughts were more that if bubbles=slime and shedding, in a small closed qt system you should really notice if there are or aren't redbugs pretty quick if their getting knocked off all the time espically of you did the initial dip and didn't find any.

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[Bpb]

[MENTION=286110]Bpb[/MENTION]
Do you have experience with flatworm exit? This is what I've been using to dip and with a turkey baster, it's worked for flatworms in general but do you know if aefw are any different? Generally I do a concentrated dip and blow the mix into all nooks and crannies and if there are worms they fall out and start dieing immediately. Then move the piece to untreated qt. I've yet to have them reappear after this but I still do a second dip a week later. I also generally don't deal with the source once I have issues like this.
So I know we practice different things than we recommend at times . my thinking was that maybe between this an inteceptor dip and a general iodine type dip and then adding bubble to the uuntreated qt I could be relatively sure I'm avioding coral pests at which point it could be added to a fallow system or you roll the dice on fish parasites depends on preference I guess.
Not looking for a recomendation, just sharing though process. My thoughts were more that if bubbles=slime and shedding, in a small closed qt system you should really notice if there are or aren't redbugs pretty quick if their getting knocked off all the time espically of you did the initial dip and didn't find any.

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I've not used flatworm exit or flatworm stop. I don't have a dedicated quarantine setup currently. It's a very long story and I'd be happy to share it but long story short I don't have the physical space for a quarantine tank, Nor do I buy and sell enough corals to warrant one. I'd like to have something of a quarantine on my next tank for sure though. My interceptor treatments were done tank-wide, not as a dip or hospital tank treatment.

The issue with a single treatment of interceptor, flatworm stop/exit, potassium, bayer, coral rx, etc is they only dislodge the adults. There are no known effective treatments for eggs, and where there are adults, there be eggs. So even if you eliminate every adult on a dip, the eggs will eventually hatch and repopulate the coral


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[Bpb]

Yes.. can't underestimate the predators. I recently added two baby yellow wrasses- about 1 1/2 inches. I have never seen two more active acropora scavengers..

I've had adult yellow wrasses that were not nearly as active at picking over acropora.

Fish alter their behavior as they mature.. I'm wondering if this may be part of the missing link in aquariums..

In the wild there is a constant supply of everything from tiny to large predators. The tiny ones being more capable and perhaps more interested in getting in amongst the branches of corals... in any given aquarium, we only have certain predators at a certain level of maturity..

Bob, can you detail your full method for using and producing the micro-bubbles?

Sure! Pretty simple. Lee's lime wood airstone wedged directly under the return pump intake. Eheim air pump. Set the timer to turn it on at night for 4 hours initially, and increase the time By an hour every couple weeks, 8 hours should be plenty. Improved gas exchange will result if you're able to place the air pump in an area where it will draw fresh air. I don't have that luxury.


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[DanConnor]

How much time elapsed between the use of interceptor and the start of the bubbling? It seems possible that you disrupted their ability to reproduce and the bubbles had nothing to do with it...

 

[Bpb]

Bubble Scrubbing and the Red Bug Scourge

How much time elapsed between the use of interceptor and the start of the bubbling? It seems possible that you disrupted their ability to reproduce and the bubbles had nothing to do with it...

Several months. At least 4

The bubble scrubbing was never done to eradicate bugs. I accepted them and decided to live with them. The scrubbing was done just out of curiosity


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