butterflies: Disease or normalities?

[Lion-o]

Hi all,

I recently bought 3 butterflies online and have been tracking their 'progress' if you will in QT. One of them was one of those fish that give me a heartache as it wouldn't eat. Recently I noticed some cloudiness on its fins that I'm fairly sure was not there before. Also, he has developed what looks to be like a "pimple" on the back of his pectoral fin (in the armpit, if you will). Pretty sure it is much too large for something like ich. I could post up a new video/photos but I really don't think the quality I could provide would allow for a fair assessment. I could however probably identify the issue from a photo if one is available.

My original thread was here, you can comment in either: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2390453

1. How old is this aquarium?
QT recently up and running. A month or so.

2. If less than six months old, what is ammonia level?
Ammonia badge reports back between .02 and .05. My ammonia test kit I don't really trust and would really love a digital reading.. I get something like .25 with that color chart (options being 0 or .25).

3. What is SG of this aquarium? How measured?
~1.022 refractometer

4. When was the last fish added to this aquarium?
All 3 butterflies added at same time, approx 1 week ago now.

5. Was it quarantined? If so, how? And how long? Was it prophylactically treated? How?
Still in QT. I have not treated for anything.

6. If you are using a copper based medication, which one? How often do you measure level? When?
NA

7. If you are using hyposalinity, how did you calibrate your refractometer?
NA

8. Please describe in detail, the appearance of the fish? If there is one or more pimples, are they lumpy? What color?
Cloudiness in the clear part of the fins (caudal, pectoral). One pimple in left pectoral fin/armpit.

9. Please describe the behavior of the fish as best you can. Is it acting reclusive? Is it always up towards the top of the aquarium? Is it avoiding light? How active is the fish?
Nothing strange aside from not eating well. I did add in an aiptasia covered rock and it does nip at the rock and "hunt". Fish is not scared of humans being around the tank.

10. Is the fish eating? What?
Definitely not the foods I've tried feeding it (marine cuisine, PE mysis, emerald entree, elos svM2 pellets). It does appear to pick at the rock though. The other two in the tank are more active feeders for sure.

thanks in advance! I really hope these guys make it QT is my least favorite part of the hobby when fish don't come out of the box healthy and eating

 

[MRCYCS805]

Have you tried feeding live brine shrimp i have always had luck getting copperbands to eat live brine and then frozen

 

[snorvich]

Any flashing? Can you give us a species so we can figure out feeding? Does the pimple resemble lymphocystis? Did they come from a system running nontherapeutic levels of copper?

 

[Lion-o]

Sorry, I posted in the original thread I believe but not this one.

They are Raccoon butterflies. I have not tried live brine shrimp. Would those be big enough? These are 5+ inch butterflies already and the reason I bought mysis was because I felt the brine shrimp in marine cuisine was perhaps too small for them.

I had to look up the definition of flashing but I don't think they are doing that. Everyone once in a while I see an erratic jerk, but I don't know if I'd call it flashing. Uploading a new vid to youtube I just took now with some more behavior in it.

I also had to look up lymphocystis and that sure is nasty. I would say it is a possibility, but it doesn't currently look like it as I don't see the "cauliflower" esque patching. It could possibly be a result of the infant stages of the disease though...

In this picture here (google image result):
http://www.fishkeepingforum.com/for...cy_W140/2011-04-11_214745_Fish_with_Lumps.JPG
Sizewise it is closer the smallest of the three bumps in the middle, and white in color as well.

I'm not sure if they came from copper or not, but they are not in copper now. They were purchased from liveaquaria, so I can give them a call if nobody knows off hand.

Also, last thing, I did notice the same fin "cloudiness" on a 2nd of the three butterflies in the tank. The third seems clean.

 

[snorvich]

I would try PE mysis. Mine love it (and eventually everything I throw in the tank). Sounds like the more likely parasite is flukes. If you check out the fish parasite thread at the top, there is a writeup on flukes. They will definitely consume aiptasia.

 

[Lion-o]

Sorry about the delay, new video is now up on youtube (old one in parent thread):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSkXRHvDGCI&feature=youtu.be

I'm actually surprised that you can see the fin cloudiness in the video, didn't think itd show up. It's pretty noticeable around these timestamps:
~15s, fish in the middle caudal fin
~35s, fish upside down pectoral fin

The one with the caudal fin cloudiness is the same one that has the "pimple" on the inside of his left pectoral. However I watched the vid a couple times and you can't really see it. I can try taking more video if it helps.

I actually did frozen PE mysis and 2 of the 3 definitely take it. The 3rd is my toughy to feed though. I do think he has probably eaten some aiptasia but as that rock is in there all day, I have no evidence. That rock was COVERED, by the way. A lot of the aiptasia is either retracted (hiding from the butterflies) or has been eaten away now.

I did actually read your flukes thread earlier. I'm not entirely convinced either way.

I also bought some of this on impulse, hoping that if it does not help now maybe it will help in the future:
http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/new-life-spectrum-finicky-fish-formula-125g-1mm-sinking-pellets.html

 

[Lion-o]

Ok, here are two more videos I took before feeding. I tried to get as much of the left pectoral as I could to show the bump... you can def see it here and there. Unfortunately, my fish is not as cooperative for posing for the camera as we would like :lol:

1of2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Emv9zecsVMI&feature=youtu.be
2of2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU8bsrTZSaQ&feature=youtu.be

 

[Lion-o]

Possible advancement : I just fed them dinner and the one I was fairly sure was not eating did eat some. However, another did not - so now I'm on the watch to see if that one does. I have my ways of telling them apart now (one has misbarred stripes and the pectoral pimple, the other has pectoral cloudiness and the third is emaculate), so hopefully the feeding part is solved. Crossing my fingers.

Now just trying to figure out whatever this cloudiness and the pimple are!

By the way, Snorvich - I wish you were my neighbor You are always so helpful whenever I have a problem!

 

[Dr Colliebreath]

You just received these butterflies on March 14 (4 days ago), right?

I can't really see enough wrong with the fish in the videos to medicate now, so I would just keep working on getting the fish to eat normally (picking at a bit of food now and then isn't enough). Frozen mysis or spirulina-enriched brine, and scallop and shrimp from the grocery store. Live brine also can be a good way to get fish eating. Try both Hikari and PE mysis - some fish prefer one to the other. Don't bother with flakes or pellets right now.

Given their size, your fish are adult or nearly so. Fish that are older are sometimes harder to wean onto prepared foods from whatever they have become accustomed to in the wild.

I would just keep feeding and observe the fish over the next handful of days. Make sure you don't get any ammonia spike. I don't see any evidence of flashing in your videos.

The cloudiness may clear up once the fish start eating regularly. If not, maybe try a round of antibiotics assuming nothing else shows up.

If the fish jerk and twitch much (I don't see any evidence of that in your videos), ask back here but I would consider treating with PraziPro at that time.

Snorvich, do you see enough of an issue to treat with PraziPro sooner rather than later?

 

[Lion-o]

I received them on 3/12, but close enough

I have some frozen squid too ( I bought the variety pack! ), so I can also give that a shot.

Dumb question - when you guys say cupramine is that a brand or the ingredient? Right now I own "copper power" which contains copper sulfate, but I can upgrade to cupramine. I never use it anyway, it was a "just in case" buy.

None of the videos I have posted are during eating time. Just normal grazing on the rock. I can post a video tomorrow of feeding time and just give the wide view of the tank of them eating for a few minutes to get your opinion. IME, fish should definitely be more (for lack of a better word...) fierce, during feeding time than what I am experiencing right now. But, they are eating (or at least 2 of the 3 are...).

And yes, they should be close to adult hood, around 5" in size. No clue how long they have been in captivity.

I don't have a LFS near me so normally go on weekends. I'll stop by a petco tomorrow though and see if they have spirulina-enriched brine.

I'll also check with the wife to see if she can get the video any clearer. Her camera, she knows the settings not me. I just press record

 

[snorvich]

By the way, Snorvich - I wish you were my neighbor You are always so helpful whenever I have a problem!

Within available time, we try very hard.

 

[snorvich]

Snorvich, do you see enough of an issue to treat with PraziPro sooner rather than later?

I always treat all fish preemptively with PraziPro because I think flukes is the parasite most often encountered in the hobby currently. With this exception, I do not feel treating fish pro-actively is desirable. (but I am probably in the minority with this opinion)

 

[snorvich]

As long as the test kit is matched to the copper used, I do not see a problem. The seachem brand may be used more than others, however. (?)

 

[Dr Colliebreath]

Lion-o,

Cupramine is the Seachem version of copper. It seems to be more easily tolerated by the fish than other copper treatments. Keep in mind that copper is poisonous and you are trying to poison the parasites without also poisoning the fish (too much). I ramp up the dosage more slowly than suggested by the instructions on the bottle to let the fish become accustomed to it.

Also, Cupramine keeps the level of copper in the QT more stable than other copper treatments. Thus, it is easier to maintain a therapeutic dose without the level of copper increasing or decreasing. Many find the copper test kits hard to use.

 

[Lion-o]

Hey again,

Here is a video of them eating dinner:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urS85ebf_sg&feature=youtu.be

You can clearly see how two of them go for it while the third doesn't seem to care. The third does go and pick at the rock about halfway through though.

I stopped at petsmart today (blasphemy i know) and saw they had spirulina brine shrimp so picked up some of that Will try it tomorrow. Do you generally mix a bunch of foods together, or feed them separately? I've been doing separate for now to try and find out what they like.

 

[snorvich]

Either mixing or singly. Sometimes you can get a fish on to another type of food by mixing one they eat with one you want them to try.

 

[Lion-o]

Little update, something I just really noticed this morning is a little different coloring in the "top tail fin". It almost looks like the protective film is gone in that little strip (circled in the photos).

I checked the video from the prior day's upload and sure enough its there too, so just something I didn't notice right away. It is on the guy that is not eating, that much is certain.

I'm still not entirely sure on a diagnosis other than, not eating. At this point I'm not sure if I should be leaning towards treating with something (copper or prazi?) or just waiting for something more concrete?

Also I own prazi but I've never had to use it. I've read you can do it in the tank for 5-7 days, or do concentrated baths for as little as a minute? Lots of conflicting info there...

thanks again,
danny

 

[Lion-o]

Decided to go ahead and treat with prazi. #3 still not eating so hopefully this helps (despite it being a suppressant).

Did a 10g water change on the 40g tank, removed carbon, left the hang on the back filter running otherwise (one of those penguin/marineland types), and added in our backup/insurance airstone running which I imagine is going to eat through those 2x D batteries so buying some more.

Crossing our fingers!

 

[Lion-o]

oh yeah - meant to include that i used 2 TSP's to treat the 40g tank. That's the ratio the bottle recommends, but if you think I should do more or less let me know

 

[Dr Colliebreath]

Sounds like the right approach. The standard dose is the right amount to use.