Kolognekoral, you say it can't, but you go on to say " we see some tanks developing alga/cyano issues" If its really a low nutrient tank in the first place (proper feeding, maintaince etc ) it certainly can get cyano outbreaks from carbon dosing. That would be the only variable if the tank is already a nutrient free system...Seeking another level (of what less pristine water?)
Can Biopellets REALLY cause Cyano growth in a low nutrient environment?
- Thread starter GroktheCube
- Start date
CW from the OC
New member
Cyano is a bacteria. Bacteria is usually carbon limited in closed reefs systems. Pellets provide carbon, and in the presence of phosphate and nitrate, grow more bacteria. Therefor adding pellets DOES increase cyano. The key is to systemically reduce the cyano in favor of more appropriate bacteria. Remove it and the good bacteria will take over. Most of all, be patient, and remove cyano daily. It may take as long as 1-2 months, maybe more.
having the same issue...my first bout with cyano and I hate it already. Been dealing for about a month now. I'm going old school. Vacummed it all out today, placed another powerhead in for more flow, did a 30% water change, will add another powerhead next week for additional flow. I have lost a few corals due to from what I think is just too low of nutrients now so at some point I will have to start feeding again. Will keep everyone posted in hopes to help others.
That's interesting, I'd like to read more about it. Have you got a reference for that?
kv2wr1
New member
http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/116-vinegar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium
I had an issue with cyano using biopellets and switched to vinegar. So far the vinegar has been reducing the cyano. See the link above.
I had an issue with cyano using biopellets and switched to vinegar. So far the vinegar has been reducing the cyano. See the link above.
GroktheCube
New member
For about a month, I've been running BRS HC GFO to keep PO4 to trace levels. I've also slightly reduced BP reactor throughput.
I still have a good amount of cyano. It doesn't seem to form as many bubble during the day, but it's still growing. I've been manually removing it every 5 days or so, but it still grows back. Its growth is most aggressive on a few pieces of what was originally dry Marco rock, which suggests to me that it might still be leaching phosphate some 11 months later.
I think I'm going to switch over to vinegar dosing to see if that helps.
I still have a good amount of cyano. It doesn't seem to form as many bubble during the day, but it's still growing. I've been manually removing it every 5 days or so, but it still grows back. Its growth is most aggressive on a few pieces of what was originally dry Marco rock, which suggests to me that it might still be leaching phosphate some 11 months later.
I think I'm going to switch over to vinegar dosing to see if that helps.
GroktheCube
New member
It's only been a few days since taking the pellets out, and I already see progress. The cyano has started to recede, about 30% of it is gone. I guess that answers my question about pellets causing cyano. I'm continuing to monitor nutrient levels, and if I see a spike, I'll start dosing vinegar.
Duna_
New member
Biopellets do not cause cyano. I run NP Biopellets (less than 1 ml per litre) and I have no cyano problems, no algae problems.
I use chaeto in the refugium which grows really well.
What causes cyano outbreaks is the imbalance of phosphate in relation to the nitrate. If you run a lot of biopellets, or dose vinegar, vodka or NOPOX, and run out all the nitrate, but still have phosphate (even if you read 0, cause fish food has a lot of phosphate and is been added daily, and consumed) .... THAT's the perfect world for cyano.
Cyano doesn`t need nitrate, it can use nitrogen gas directly from the water, so in a world of phosphate and zero nitrate, she's the queen.
That's the main cause for cyano outbreaks, not the biopellets themselves. I had a friend running zeovit (ates at zero) with cyano everywhere. He finally sold everything.
I run BP and no cyano, no algae, ates at zero. But in my tank there`s a perfect balance with nitrate and phosphate, they're been produced, because corals are not pale and chaeto grows very well, but they are consumed. Biopellets consume nitrate, and chaeto consumes phosphate, nitrate, iron and other things that other algae like.
The reason of the recesion of the cyano after taking the biopellets out, is just what I have explained: nitrate was being consumed by the bacteria of the BP, but phosphate is available: perfect for the cyano. When more nitrate is available again (after taking the BP out), it starts to balance again, and more things start to consume the phosphate, because they also need nitrate (algae, zooxanthellae, etc). And when less phosphate is available, cyano starts to decay because of its competitors.
What we have to control is the balance of the ates, and cyano will lose the battle. And chaeto, chaeto and chaeto. Many people don't pay attention to the importance of this algae, it devours phosphate. The more we have, the less phosphate in the water. I don't run resins, I feed a lot everyday, and my phosphates are at 0-0,02. Biopellets control the nitrate, which is also at 0. And it's not a ULNS.
I use chaeto in the refugium which grows really well.
What causes cyano outbreaks is the imbalance of phosphate in relation to the nitrate. If you run a lot of biopellets, or dose vinegar, vodka or NOPOX, and run out all the nitrate, but still have phosphate (even if you read 0, cause fish food has a lot of phosphate and is been added daily, and consumed) .... THAT's the perfect world for cyano.
Cyano doesn`t need nitrate, it can use nitrogen gas directly from the water, so in a world of phosphate and zero nitrate, she's the queen.
That's the main cause for cyano outbreaks, not the biopellets themselves. I had a friend running zeovit (ates at zero) with cyano everywhere. He finally sold everything.
I run BP and no cyano, no algae, ates at zero. But in my tank there`s a perfect balance with nitrate and phosphate, they're been produced, because corals are not pale and chaeto grows very well, but they are consumed. Biopellets consume nitrate, and chaeto consumes phosphate, nitrate, iron and other things that other algae like.
The reason of the recesion of the cyano after taking the biopellets out, is just what I have explained: nitrate was being consumed by the bacteria of the BP, but phosphate is available: perfect for the cyano. When more nitrate is available again (after taking the BP out), it starts to balance again, and more things start to consume the phosphate, because they also need nitrate (algae, zooxanthellae, etc). And when less phosphate is available, cyano starts to decay because of its competitors.
What we have to control is the balance of the ates, and cyano will lose the battle. And chaeto, chaeto and chaeto. Many people don't pay attention to the importance of this algae, it devours phosphate. The more we have, the less phosphate in the water. I don't run resins, I feed a lot everyday, and my phosphates are at 0-0,02. Biopellets control the nitrate, which is also at 0. And it's not a ULNS.
Allmost
New member
biopellets are a form of organic carbon, that feed bacteria.
Cyanobacteria is a form of bacteria. a photosynthesis bacteria.
in carbon dosing, we want to encourage "none Photo" bacteria to grow and take up nutrients.
now if cyano is growing, that means the balance is skewed ... there are 2 ways to solve this . one is to make the environment "bad" for cyano [remove light, increase flow] to favour growth of other bacteria.
another way, is to increase population of competition, like dosing bacteria
HTH,
Cyanobacteria is a form of bacteria. a photosynthesis bacteria.
in carbon dosing, we want to encourage "none Photo" bacteria to grow and take up nutrients.
now if cyano is growing, that means the balance is skewed ... there are 2 ways to solve this . one is to make the environment "bad" for cyano [remove light, increase flow] to favour growth of other bacteria.
another way, is to increase population of competition, like dosing bacteria
HTH,
Duna_
New member
I'm very against dosing any bacteria to the tank. Specially those commercial strains of bacteria that requere frequent addition to take over the wild strains that came with the live rock. Wild bacteria do not need any constant addition and work perfectly, but what they want is to make our tank dependant to their own commercial strains.
What we have to do is to boost the bacteria strains that are in our tank. Biopellets do not add as much as carbon to the water as liquid carbon does. It's a solid carbon source, covered with bacteria. If you take count of the amount (in weight) of the biopellets that is added to the tank and the amount of liquid carbon you add daily to the tank, it's obvious that is much less. And biopellets last more that 6 months.
Liquid carbon dosing can also feed the cyano, as it's a bacteria, but the main cause is what I have said: the imbalance of phosphate and nitrate, which is against ALL the competitors of the cyano.
You boost the competitors (chaeto, specially, and corals) and cyano loses. But only when they can get nitrate they can lower the phosphates. And when no nitrate and very little phosphate is available, and also carbon, chaeto is the queen.
Remmember that phosphate is available everyday just by only feeding fish food.
What we have to do is to boost the bacteria strains that are in our tank. Biopellets do not add as much as carbon to the water as liquid carbon does. It's a solid carbon source, covered with bacteria. If you take count of the amount (in weight) of the biopellets that is added to the tank and the amount of liquid carbon you add daily to the tank, it's obvious that is much less. And biopellets last more that 6 months.
Liquid carbon dosing can also feed the cyano, as it's a bacteria, but the main cause is what I have said: the imbalance of phosphate and nitrate, which is against ALL the competitors of the cyano.
You boost the competitors (chaeto, specially, and corals) and cyano loses. But only when they can get nitrate they can lower the phosphates. And when no nitrate and very little phosphate is available, and also carbon, chaeto is the queen.
Remmember that phosphate is available everyday just by only feeding fish food.
asylumdown
New member
Some socratic questions for you:
What specific evidence are you drawing on to come to the conclusion that you have?
What species or strains of bacteria do you think are in the bottles?
What are all the strains of bacteria that you think can potentially come in on live rock, and how do you know which of those strains are present on any one piece, or what their major ecological role is?
How does being grown in culture and distributed in bottles make bacteria functionally different from wild strains?
What reason does being 'wild' make something superior?
How do you know that the species or strains of bacteria that came in on your rocks are the best or right ones for aerobically consuming large quantitates of organic carbon?
How do you think its point of origin or downstream handling might have affected the bacterial composition you started out with on your live rocks?
How do you know that wild heterotrophic strains can or will maintain a stable population in your tank over time? How do you know that the 'commercial' varieties cannot set up their own self sustaining populations?
Do you think it's possible that the conditions of our aquariums, which are quite different from conditions in the ocean, might result in bacterial populations that are not well adapted to dealing with the C:N
regimes present in a carbon dosed tank?Isn't it possible that the 'wild' strains any one person might have be highly variable from tank to tank, and that what you happen to get comes down to luck?
Do you think it's ever possible for the addition of new strains that may or may not have been present before, specifically chosen because they're effective at consuming dissolved organic carbon, could improve the functioning of your system relative to parameters that affect the health of your corals and the growth unwanted algae in a carbon dosed tank?
Do you think it's possible that the act of adding large quantities of bacteria, rather than the stabilized growth of native bacteria that might be partially responsible for the reduction of nutrients?
Do you think that your feelings on bacteria in aquariums apply to all rock in every tank in every situation? Can you think of any conditions that they might not?
I could go on, but the point is that just because something is 'commercial' does not make it evil or ineffective. Just because something is 'wild' or 'natural' does not mean that it is good, effective for what you're trying to accomplish, has any of the properties you are ascribing to it on an ideological or emotional basis, or even actually present.
Duna_
New member
Nice and well thought questions. I'm very sorry my English is not as good as I would like to discuss them properly. I feel as I couldn't explain better.
First, I'm not against "commercial" things, and I also don't think that something is better only because it comes from the wild. But talking about live rock, there are more things in it that are beneficial, apart from bacteria. Live rock is not only a bacterial filter.
Many answers can be read here: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/3/aafeature
And as it says:
It's more than likely that determinate bacteria strains requiere determinate growth factors (vitamins, aminoacids, energy, etc) so by dosing this products, we help them take over the bacteria that came with the wild live rock.
Many people I know have had problems (i.e algae blooms) when stopping dosing this commercial strains and its products, and have to restart dosing again. That`s just why I don't like them, I think they make "addict" an aquarium.
I think that that is not natural nor maybe, logical. I've had always my good live rock from different locations, collected from the shipping box, and no need to add anything frequently. And this does work. No nitrite, full of life, no algae. And if it works, and very well, why need to add frequently a commercial bacteria strain in order to take over the others I had and worked perfectly, which needs also their commercial boost product from that brand?
Could they be better that the wild ones I have? Maybe. I don't know. Could they consume more carbon that wild ones? Maybe, again. But I can boost mine by just using biopellets. They are just the strains I had, but boosted by the solid carbon source. I don't need to add any products, any bacteria frequently to maintain it.
No problem in stopping using the biopellets, now I need them less as the chaeto keeps growing and growing.
Of course every tank is different, that was just my opinion. Most people understimate the work of chaeto in the fight with the cyanobacteria and blame biopellets on their cyano blooms. Yes and no.
My tank works perfectly in a more "natural" way, never added bacteria or products for them, no metod, very good live rock, biopellets (little) and chaeto. Heavy feeding, ates to zero, corals with strong colors, no cyano.
But as each tank is diferent, and was set in a different way, should be handled in the way it works better.
First, I'm not against "commercial" things, and I also don't think that something is better only because it comes from the wild. But talking about live rock, there are more things in it that are beneficial, apart from bacteria. Live rock is not only a bacterial filter.
Many answers can be read here: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/3/aafeature
And as it says:
That's what vendors want, artificially establish their bacteria strains, that require not only frequent addition, but also their own products to thrieve (or at least they suggest them). Just think, most commercial brands have their bacteria and their products to boost their bacteria.
It's more than likely that determinate bacteria strains requiere determinate growth factors (vitamins, aminoacids, energy, etc) so by dosing this products, we help them take over the bacteria that came with the wild live rock.
Many people I know have had problems (i.e algae blooms) when stopping dosing this commercial strains and its products, and have to restart dosing again. That`s just why I don't like them, I think they make "addict" an aquarium.
I think that that is not natural nor maybe, logical. I've had always my good live rock from different locations, collected from the shipping box, and no need to add anything frequently. And this does work. No nitrite, full of life, no algae. And if it works, and very well, why need to add frequently a commercial bacteria strain in order to take over the others I had and worked perfectly, which needs also their commercial boost product from that brand?
Could they be better that the wild ones I have? Maybe. I don't know. Could they consume more carbon that wild ones? Maybe, again. But I can boost mine by just using biopellets. They are just the strains I had, but boosted by the solid carbon source. I don't need to add any products, any bacteria frequently to maintain it.
No problem in stopping using the biopellets, now I need them less as the chaeto keeps growing and growing.
Of course every tank is different, that was just my opinion. Most people understimate the work of chaeto in the fight with the cyanobacteria and blame biopellets on their cyano blooms. Yes and no.
My tank works perfectly in a more "natural" way, never added bacteria or products for them, no metod, very good live rock, biopellets (little) and chaeto. Heavy feeding, ates to zero, corals with strong colors, no cyano.
But as each tank is diferent, and was set in a different way, should be handled in the way it works better.
GroktheCube
New member
I thought the same thing at first, which was why I've been using GFO very aggressively for the past month. PO4 has been near undetectable for weeks, and while that did slow the cyano, it didn't stop it.
In the few days since stopping the pellets, nitrates and phosphates have both remained nearly undetectable, but the cyano has been dying off. This suggests to me that it no longer has the food it needs, and makes me wonder if the oligosaccharides in the BPs might have been feeding this particular strain of cyano.
I can't account for all possible variables, but there have been no changes in dissolved inorganic N or P that my test kits can measure, which makes me think CHO release from the pellets may have been the culprit.
It is also possible that an immeasurably small change in N
in the water did the trick, or that some of my CUC have suddenly developed a taste for cyano.
GroktheCube
New member
Instructions say 1ml per 50g of system volume. Total system volume is about 150g. I don't know if I'll continue dosing after this bottle is used up though. I'm not sure if they're doing anything at all.
~RuSh~
New member
Behind the curve here a bit, but reading this a question comes to me... If you are getting additional nutrients from biopellets, isn't the system flawed? My understanding was that the biopellet reactor was to go directly into a skimmer, with no (or very little) possibility of bypass. If you are adding nutrients to the tank isn't this where the problem is?
