Carbon Dosing causes STN/RTN?

Kruss7

New member
Hi everyone,

I wanted to share my recent experience with carbon dosing and its impact on my SPS corals, specifically Acropora. I've been keeping SPS for many years, and my system is a 300-gallon SPS-dominated tank. Here are my parameters:

Salinity: 35ppm
Alkalinity: 9 DKH
Calcium: 450 ppm
Magnesium: 1400 ppm
Nitrate: 25 ppm
Phosphate: 0.06 ppm
pH: 8-8.2
Temperature: 78.5°F

As a background I consistently change my RODI filters and monitor alkalinity with an Alkatronic and a Trident, referencing a Hanna checker. I check other parameters with Hanna and Salifert kits and regularly recalibrate my pH probe. My system has a lot of flow (3 MP60s, 4 MP40s) and light (4 Orphek Atlantik V4s and OR3 bars). I maintain stability with a calcium reactor and kalk to boost pH, and I use a filter roller. I dose trace elements with the Captiv8 line and have just sent out an ICP test to double-check my levels. I don't run GFO or a reactor but use an algae scrubber and do weekly water changes with Reef Crystals to remove detritus.

Recently, I noticed my nitrate levels creeping up, starting at 15 ppm a couple of months ago and increasing by 1 ppm every few weeks. To get it under control, I began carbon dosing with vinegar, following the dosing chart and slowly ramping up over a couple of weeks. Despite reaching 100 ml per day, I saw no reduction in nitrate or phosphate. However, I did notice some of my previously happy SPS corals started peeling in the middle with their polyps out.

This is the second time I've experienced this with carbon dosing. The first time, I thought it might be a coincidence, but now I'm convinced there's a correlation. I've stopped carbon dosing and noticed a bit of cyano on some frag plugs and dead tissue, which I never had before. I suspect that carbon dosing might be promoting the growth of bad bacteria, leading to STN or peeling in my SPS corals.

I know that carbon dosing works wonders for some reefers, likely because they don't have harmful bacteria strains present in their systems. For those who have success with carbon dosing, it can effectively reduce nitrates and phosphates by enhancing beneficial bacteria activity.

To address the issue, I'm now focusing on increasing positive bacteria strains in my tank by dosing beneficial bacteria to help outcompete the harmful bacteria. I'm hopeful this approach will stabilize my system and prevent further issues.

Has anyone else experienced similar issues with carbon dosing? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks!

Below was my sps a couple days ago. Great colours to what is now happening.
 

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A bajillion years ago (back when carbon dosing first started) I experienced that same thing but I was using cheap vodka instead of vinegar. I promptly quit dosing carbon and have never done it again.
 
A bajillion years ago (back when carbon dosing first started) I experienced that same thing but I was using cheap vodka instead of vinegar. I promptly quit dosing carbon and have never done it again.
Mine is vinegar, I can’t rule out a containments tho. I do really think it causes the bacteria that kills the acro flesh to flourish. My acros are peeling with polyps out.
 
I do carbon dose. I used to use vodka but found higher levels would cause cyano. I dose NoPox currently. I have a 20 gallon holding tank at the moment with all SPS and dose 2-4ml a day. Some systems do better with lower nutrients and some do better with higher. It all depends on what your system likes. STN and RTN is a little weird, though, unless you are dosing a lot of carbon. Usually it will just affect the coral colors. Do you run a skimmer? A skimmer is very important when carbon dosing.

Interested in the results of the ICP test.
 
I do carbon dose. I used to use vodka but found higher levels would cause cyano. I dose NoPox currently. I have a 20 gallon holding tank at the moment with all SPS and dose 2-4ml a day. Some systems do better with lower nutrients and some do better with higher. It all depends on what your system likes. STN and RTN is a little weird, though, unless you are dosing a lot of carbon. Usually it will just affect the coral colors. Do you run a skimmer? A skimmer is very important when carbon dosing.

Interested in the results of the ICP test.
Yes I run a skimmer. I am dosing 100ml of vinegar. But it’s a 300g system.
 
Yes I run a skimmer. I am dosing 100ml of vinegar. But it’s a 300g system.

That is a lot of vinegar. The chart below shows 80ml but at 4 months. I would say to back it way down or switch to a different carbon source. I like NoPox because it has different forms of carbon in one.

1741207332310.png
 
Wow, that is a lot of vinegar and really fast. If anything, I would try the chart I attached. I never had issues with those amounts.
Maybe that’s why? Well it’s off now so let’s see if the STN stops. Like I was saying I had 0 No3 reduction. Maybe it’s also possible the vinegar had a contaminant. If I were to try again in future I would try something like nopox for sure.
 
Maybe that’s why? Well it’s off now so let’s see if the STN stops. Like I was saying I had 0 No3 reduction. Maybe it’s also possible the vinegar had a contaminant. If I were to try again in future I would try something like nopox for sure.

You could be right about feeding pathogenic bacteria as well. Maybe your nitrate consuming bacteria is very low compared to other bacteria. You could have arcobacter or some other pathogenic bacteria that could have went nuts on the vinegar. At those levels you should have had a bloom atleast.

It is possible it isn't bacteria related at all. You could have metals, etc in your water and the vinegar was enough to stress them out. Curious to see what the ICP says.
 
Since I was invited to post I felt free to bring along my soap box. :D

There's a ton of research showing increased labile DOC, aka carbon dosing causes problems for corals ranging from chronic to acute. Even the DOC a coral produces, when concentrated and reapplied to the coral can cause problems. One way it negatively affects corals is it allows the heterotrophic in a coral's holobiont to use refractory DOC as a food source and proliferate but these bacteria consume oxygen in the process and create anoxic conditions in the coral's surface boundary layer. Excess labile DOC also has been shown to cause pathogenic shifts in coral microbiomes.

Cryptic sponges in a reef system, fortunately, are able to moderate these processes to some degree by converting labile DOC into nitrogen rich detritus and DIC. These sponges have been shown to do this 1000X faster than the bacterioplankton (only a portion of the bacterioplankton is removed by skimmers). Unfortunately, these sponges are a double edge sword and process DOC from algae differentially from coral DOC and potentially can create a feedback loop the promotes increased algae growth at the cost of corals.

(Short answer - Yup, not surprised.)

Here's a data bomb:

Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)

"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas " This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title. Used copies are available on line and it may be free to read on Internet Archive. both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC (carbon dosing) in reef ecosystems and how it can alter coral microbiomes. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems and are an excellent starting point to understand the conflicting roles of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC, aka "carbon dosing") in reef ecosystems.

Bacteria and Sponges


DOC stuff:


FYI: DOC can be roughly seperated into three catagories, Labile, Semirefractory and Refractory. Most of the following papaers are looking mainly at Labile DOC. This will raise the hackles on some reefers but keep in mind Labile DOC and Carbon Dosing are synonamous. Jasper deGeoij's work shows cryptic sponges remove labile DOC about a thousand times faster than bacterioplankton. Included are links to some of the research showing what cryptic sponges are doing as well. Also, researchers tend to use DOM (Dissolved Organic Matter) and DOC (Dissolved Organic Carbon) interchangebly.

long-term stony coral survival in the Coral Reef Exhibit at Reef HQ Aquarium, Townsville, Australia with an ATS was measured in days, not years. (See figure 3) (This page may have been removed, I can send you a copy of the .PDF if you're interested)

Indirect effects of algae on coral: algae‐mediated, microbe‐induced coral mortality

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism.
Coral DOC improves oxygen (autotrophy), algae DOC reduces oxygen (heterotrophy).

Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality

Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity
Algae releases significantly more DOC into the water than coral.

Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species.
DOC caused coral death but not high nitrates, phosphates or ammonium.

Visualization of oxygen distribution patterns caused by coral and algae

Biological oxygen demand optode analysis of coral reef-associated microbial communities exposed to algal exudates
Exposure to exudates derived from turf algae stimulated higher oxygen drawdown by the coral-associated bacteria.

Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.

Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching

Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution
(here's an argument for maintaining heavy fish loads if you're carbon dosing)

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton

Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs.

Allelochemicals Produced by Brown Macroalgae of the Lobophora Genus Are Active against Coral Larvae and Associated Bacteria, Supporting Pathogenic Shifts to Vibrio Dominance.

Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides.

Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals.

Biophysical and physiological processes causing oxygen loss from coral reefs.

Global microbialization of coral reefs
DDAM Proven

Coral Reef Microorganisms in a Changing Climate, Fig 3

Ecosystem Microbiology of Coral Reefs: Linking Genomic, Metabolomic, and Biogeochemical Dynamics from Animal Symbioses to Reefscape Processes


Sponge stuff:

Element cycling on tropical coral reefs.
This is Jasper de Geoij's ground breaking research on reef sponge finding some species process labile DOC 1000X faster than bacterioplankton. (The introduction is in Dutch but the content is in English.)

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop.
Sponges treat DOC from algae differently than DOC from corals

A Vicious Circle? Altered Carbon and Nutrient Cycling May Explain the Low Resilience of Caribbean Coral Reefs

Surviving in a Marine Desert The Sponge Loop Retains Resources Within Coral Reefs
Dissolved organic carbon and nitrogen are quickly processed by sponges and released back into the reef food web in hours as carbon and nitrogen rich detritus.

Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)

The Role of Marine Sponges in Carbon and Nitrogen Cycles of COral Reefs and Nearshore Environments.

Microbially mediated nutrient cycles in marine sponges
 
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