Cleaner wrasse inside my goby

[travis32]

O.k. the title is a bit gross, but I actually saw this happen yesterday. I know I have ich in my tank, because the one fish I didn't QT, had ich within 2 days of putting it in the tank and 5 days later it died.

I refuse to fallow the tank, because I went through a lot to get it where it is....


So, I picked up a cleaner wrasse, to help keep things parasitic free as possible. He really does his job well.

Yesterday I was watching the fish and the wrasse was picking at my sleeper goby. He just stops mid sand sifting and lets the wrasse pick at him. It's pretty neat to watch.

Well, then I saw the oddest thing. I saw the Goby's gills wide open like he was intentionally holding them open larger then when he's sifting sand.

Well, I saw the next wierdest thing. The wrasse swam up and swam into the goby's gills. His head was all the way inside the goby's gills. The goby then turned to peck at the wrasse to tell him to get out, and he did, and they both swam off.

I've never seen this before. I assume the goby wanted the wrasse to get something from inside his sand sifting area. But, is that dangerous? I don't there's anything I can do about it, but, I'm just wondering if I'll find a cleaner wrasse lodged inside my Goby one day. lol.

My goby went back to sand sifting as his usual self. I wish I could have gotten a picture, but, it happened fairly suddenly.

 

[snorvich]

The life cycle of this parasite is interesting and is important to understand when evaluating a treatment. The stage where the parasite is attached to a fish is called a trophont. The trophont will spend three to seven days (depending on temperature) feeding on the fish and that is what you see symptomatically when you see "salt sprinkled on the fish". After that, the trophont leaves the fish and becomes what is called a protomont. This protomont travels to the substrate and begins to crawl around for usually two to eight hours, but it could go for as long as eighteen hours after it leaves it's fish host. Once the protomont attaches to a surface, it begins to encyst and is now called a tomont. Division inside the cyst into hundreds of daughter parasites, called tomites, begins shortly thereafter. This noninfectious stage can last anywhere from three to twenty-eight days. During this extended period, the parasite cyst is lying in wait for a host. After this period, the tomites hatch and begin swimming around, looking for a fish host. At this point, they are called theronts, and they must find a host within twenty-four hours or die. They prefer to seek out the skin and gill tissue, then transform into trophonts, and begin the process all over again. What this means is that when your tank is infected, you can actually see symptoms during a very small part of the life cycle, and it why your tank is infected even though your fish are resistant. It will also explain why symptoms come and go.

Many hobbyists are fooled into believing they have cured their fish of the parasites, only to find Ich present again on fish a few weeks later; a reason why following through with a full treatment protocol is so important. Don't make this mistake and be lulled into a false sense of security. The parasites may be in a stage where they are merely regrouping and multiplying for their "next offensive." In the wild, this sort of massive reproductive phase ensures that a few will find a suitable host to continue on the cycle. In the close confines of our aquariums, though, it means comparatively massive infection rates.

This disease is usually associated with several environmental triggers. Changes in water temperature, exposure to high levels of ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate, low pH levels, low dissolved oxygen often associated with overcrowding, are all factors contributing to the onset of the disease. You could lump all of these in a general category of "stress", but it is more appropriate to think of all of these as "unnatural conditions". In fact, Cryptocaryon irritans is rare in the wild even more unlikely to be lethal. Ich is truly a disease that exploits the conditions of captivity to reproduce and easily find suitable hosts.

By the way, trophonts are under the skin so cleaner wrasses and cleaner shrimp have no real effect on reducing this parasite.

 

[snorvich]

So, I picked up a cleaner wrasse, to help keep things parasitic free as possible. He really does his job well.

Cleaner wrasses and cleaner shrimp have no affect on cryptocaryon irritans

Well, then I saw the oddest thing. I saw the Goby's gills wide open like he was intentionally holding them open larger then when he's sifting sand.

Many fish, especially angelfish do this

I don't there's anything I can do about it, but, I'm just wondering if I'll find a cleaner wrasse lodged inside my Goby one day. lol.

No. Actually some predators, e.g. groupers, open their mouth for cleaners to do underwater dentistry. I have a picture of that which is now sitting in my dentist's office

 

[Moort82]

By the way, trophonts are under the skin so cleaner wrasses and cleaner shrimp have no real effect on reducing this parasite.

I'm also pretty sure that ws isn't that common in the wild so they have not developed to utilise these parasites either.

That and the fact cleaner wrasse are just as susceptible means its not something i would add with an outbreak. Although i do agree it may have some therapeutic value.

 

[kmac]

I have seen my yellow tang float on his side all over the tank following my cleaner wrasse. If you have a cleaner wrasse in your tank you will witness a great symbiotic relationship between tankmates.

 

[travis32]

Yeah it's by far the most active and strangest behaviored fish I've seen. It even tried to be a "clown" fish. It swam up beside my pair of clowns and bobbed up and down, mimicking their behaviors. Thinking somehow bobbing up and down with the clowns would make it a clown....

Definately agree a very interesting behavior'ed fish.

As to the ich. I still am QTing new arivals for disease and parasite prevention. (eg velvet, flukes and other more severe parasites tank destroying parasites.)

I won't stop QT ing just because I have ich in the DT.

I've read stories where people go years without any major outbreaks of ich killing anything.

So, I'm looking to treat it more like a bacteria. It's all around the fish and all over in the tank, but, at most it becomes an annoyance. A really weak, or low immune fish could be killed by it. Which would probably happen anyways just not to ich.

If I find in a few months, I have no choice but to dismantle the tank to get the fish out. I gues I'll have to. I'd have to find someone willing to house them and treat them while the tank goes foul.

I have to believe a lot of people have to have ich in their tanks and the fish coexist o.k. wtih it. I may be way off. And maybe a bit naive to the severity of how much damage it can do to a fish. I don't know on that. If there's anti parasitic foods that help the fish, I'd consider that. But to dismantle the reef to get the fish out, plus nothing big enough to put them in...

 

[snorvich]

Hmmm. Did you read what I posted?

 

[travis32]

yes, I'm confused as to what I'm missing. (not to sound dumb. ) it all made sense to me.

I think you're referring to your final paragraph:
This disease is usually associated with several environmental triggers. Changes in water temperature, exposure to high levels of ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate, low pH levels, low dissolved oxygen often associated with overcrowding, are all factors contributing to the onset of the disease. You could lump all of these in a general category of "stress", but it is more appropriate to think of all of these as "unnatural conditions". In fact, Cryptocaryon irritans is rare in the wild even more unlikely to be lethal. Ich is truly a disease that exploits the conditions of captivity to reproduce and easily find suitable hosts.

If it is a result of stress as you say. are you stating that low stress will decrease the risk of infection? or are you saying that my fish are stressed? I'm not sure what the implication is? I have paid extreme care to my water chemistry and creating a stress free environment, carefully picking fish that are peaceful, and sized appropriately for the tank. If anything I am too careful, because I only have 6 fish for a 6ft 125g.

PH hovers around 8.3 during the day, 8.2 at night. Temp hoverse between 77 and 79.
I have some phosphate issues that I'm working on, but, that shouldn't be affecting the fihs, I use RODI water with a TDS of 2 or less.

I carefully keep my alk at between 3.3 meq/l and 3.5 meq/l with no sudden changes.
Ca is around 430 - 500.
MG is around 1500.
Nitrates have consistantly been zero and no ammonia detectable.

It is as stress free as I can create. I agree with your statement completely: "Ich is truly a disease that exploits the conditions of captivity to reproduce and easily find suitable hosts."

It may simply be stress from transportation and acclimation. Again, I have no fish with any visible signs of it. If the cleaner wrasse is picking stuff off the body of the fish are you saying or implying that it's not ich that it's picking off? Maybe something else entirely? I had 1 clown that had 2 white spots on his fins. And 5 days later it died. I assumed it was ich. It wasn't salt and pepper looking. It died exactly 7 days after being introduced. I have not lost any other fish since then. Nor any signs of ich since then.

No fish scratching, just the cleaner wrasse picking stuff off the other fish. Nothing salt and peppery or anything. I just assume it's ich since I didn't QT the clown and it died in 7 days of 2 or 3 white spots on his fins.

That was approximately 6 - 8 weeks ago.

Sorry if I'm not understanding what you're implying.

 

[snorvich]

It may simply be stress from transportation and acclimation. Again, I have no fish with any visible signs of it. If the cleaner wrasse is picking stuff off the body of the fish are you saying or implying that it's not ich that it's picking off?

Cleaner wrasses (and cleaner shrimp) do not pick off ich (a study was made in a controlled environment of stomach contents; they eat dead skin)

Maybe something else entirely? I had 1 clown that had 2 white spots on his fins. And 5 days later it died. I assumed it was ich. It wasn't salt and pepper looking. It died exactly 7 days after being introduced. I have not lost any other fish since then. Nor any signs of ich since then.

It may not have been ich

That was approximately 6 - 8 weeks ago.

Give it another six weeks; if no issues, you should be fine. But please quarantine all fish going forward

Sorry if I'm not understanding what you're implying.

 

[travis32]

Thansk Snorvich! Makes more sense now. What is the cleaner wrasse picking off the bodies of the fish now then? I know on the goby I saw a white wormlike thing abut 1/8" long maybe longer, crawling around it's head. Eventually it just fell off the goby's head.

Is it things like that that just are on the fish the wrasse picks off? Almost all the fish ask the wrass to pick at their bodies. I've seen it numerous times. If it's not ich, then what might it be or they just like getting nipped at?

 

[snorvich]

Thansk Snorvich! Makes more sense now. What is the cleaner wrasse picking off the bodies of the fish now then? I know on the goby I saw a white wormlike thing abut 1/8" long maybe longer, crawling around it's head. Eventually it just fell off the goby's head.

Is it things like that that just are on the fish the wrasse picks off? Almost all the fish ask the wrass to pick at their bodies. I've seen it numerous times. If it's not ich, then what might it be or they just like getting nipped at?

If you stick your hand in, the cleaner will also clean you Do you have ich? Underwater, i have had them clean my teeth. Feels weird!

 

[travis32]

Yes, I have ichmoraphobia?

And yes it does feel very weird. He pecked my hand a few times. Lol.
I refuse to stick my face in the water though. LOL. I draw the line somewhere. . . .