My brother and I got in the hobby at the same time 3 years ago. We worked through the kinks together, calling each other just about every night with a question or comment about what we had found. My brother told me about this cool site he had found call Reef Central that had local forums and great info. He then moved to a new state and joined the local forum there. He described to me a group of hobbiest that worked together to help each other out. They meet once a month and have a free coral swap. One or two guys started by donating a donor frag. When the donor frag reached 4 inches, 2 inches were fragged and kept by the hobbiest and the original frag was sent back to the group so someone else could raise it for a while. It has become quite a program and costs no one a dime. They go on Reef Central sponsored outings, have meetings monthly with sponsored giveaways and generally have a great group. The LFS's offer discounts on meeting days and sometimes have giveaways. Ryan tells me that the LFS make a killing on these days because everyone spends a bunch based on the good discount they get. After telling me all of this, I decided to join. All I can say is that this group does not compare to his. I have met some really neat people on here and have learned a lot, but in general there seems to be more interest in making a buck and talking trash than helping each other advance in the hobby. I'm new to this group, but might I suggest a new approach and try working together to promote the hobby. Just a thought.
Commentary on this forum
- Thread starter mlimb
- Start date
dogstar74
Premium Member
Re: Commentary on this forum
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall..."
"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country..."
"I have a dream.."
"Michael, there comes a time in every man's life... And that time might be now... When it doesn't hurt to think about the future."
Not exactly the inspiring call to arms that would rally a lot of support if you ask me.
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall..."
"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country..."
"I have a dream.."
"Michael, there comes a time in every man's life... And that time might be now... When it doesn't hurt to think about the future."
Not exactly the inspiring call to arms that would rally a lot of support if you ask me.
OK, a little history, a few years ago a few tried to get a "Club" going. It was tried for a few months with no more then 6 ever showing up. Another person tried the group buy lotto/shares approach. Next came the Auction/get together, that brought the people out. This hobby is expensive, equipment, livestock, salt and additives and the knowledge was not cheap to get either. The Auctions IMO, are the best all around solution, it gets people out trying to get the best deals, information is there for those that want it. I give frags away to get people started and most times do not regret it but some try to get everything for free. I really wanted Frank/TropOasis to put us on his circuit but there was not enough support. My biggest problem with trading is all the pests out there now, Red Bugs, Zoo Nudi's, Cap Nudi's and others and people not telling or knowing they are infested. First item auctioned few months ago had a huge Zoo Nudi floating in the cup when someone opened it. I am always available to help with setting up, plumbing and livestock help. I can get several Reef Speaker/Authors but have not seen enough people interested to commit to getting a speaker. Even Desert Marine Society in Phoenix had a embarrassing showing for a few of their events. I, for one hate "Clubs" because they lead to dues and ego's, but it is hard to get people to step up and share the load without one. But then after a time the membership gripes about the club not doing anything and the burden goes to the "Club" officers to do the work. Another thing, look at the old Phoenix PROP threads and ask yourself if you want to be one of the people responsible for the frags, I don't. Well good luck putting a group together, I mean that because it would be nice for Tucson.
I am new to this forum and don't know the problems of the past. My purpose in writing the commentary was more to share some ideas in light of my brother's experience. I can imagine things don't always go as planned and what works in one area may not work in another.
I don't expect this to be a no cost hobby. To date, I have spent somewhere in the neighborhood of $4500 on my little system. Had I learned a little more before I started, I could have saved a fortune or got a huge system for the same money. Recently I bought several frags from a local member and spent $200 and I purchased an additonal light from someone else and spent the same. Neither purchase was free but in both cases, I felt that I had been treated fairly and had received a good deal. I also think those that I purchased from were satisfied with the money I spent. Neither person was trying to make a killing but asked a fair price. Everyone was satisfied. I will also add that I learned a great deal from both guys and came away a better reefer. Free is not my goal but, not everything has to cost the mother load.
Enough about the money though. I also wrote the commentary based on the fight that seemed to be going on with the "Shops in Tucson" thread. It seemed more like a battle than the honest observations of the members. A lot of built up anger was let loose. The poor guy from California that was visiting was just asking a simple question as I can imagine doing if I was in his area. I think we looked rather childish as a group and he ended up being more helpful and objective for us than we were for him.
As far as meetings go, not everyone can make every meeting. For me, its an hour drive to Tucson and 35 minutes to Sierra Vista so it is a challenge for me to go. I personally look for advice here online because of that. Perhaps we can plan as a group a few big meetings twice a year or something and some smaller meetings as needed. Again, I don't know what has worked or failed in the past, but it would be nice to be able to share ideas and goods/livestock in person once in a while.
I just realized that I have gotten a bit wordy so I will shut up. I hope we can work together and create a productive forum for everyone that wants to get involved.
I don't expect this to be a no cost hobby. To date, I have spent somewhere in the neighborhood of $4500 on my little system. Had I learned a little more before I started, I could have saved a fortune or got a huge system for the same money. Recently I bought several frags from a local member and spent $200 and I purchased an additonal light from someone else and spent the same. Neither purchase was free but in both cases, I felt that I had been treated fairly and had received a good deal. I also think those that I purchased from were satisfied with the money I spent. Neither person was trying to make a killing but asked a fair price. Everyone was satisfied. I will also add that I learned a great deal from both guys and came away a better reefer. Free is not my goal but, not everything has to cost the mother load.
Enough about the money though. I also wrote the commentary based on the fight that seemed to be going on with the "Shops in Tucson" thread. It seemed more like a battle than the honest observations of the members. A lot of built up anger was let loose. The poor guy from California that was visiting was just asking a simple question as I can imagine doing if I was in his area. I think we looked rather childish as a group and he ended up being more helpful and objective for us than we were for him.
As far as meetings go, not everyone can make every meeting. For me, its an hour drive to Tucson and 35 minutes to Sierra Vista so it is a challenge for me to go. I personally look for advice here online because of that. Perhaps we can plan as a group a few big meetings twice a year or something and some smaller meetings as needed. Again, I don't know what has worked or failed in the past, but it would be nice to be able to share ideas and goods/livestock in person once in a while.
I just realized that I have gotten a bit wordy so I will shut up. I hope we can work together and create a productive forum for everyone that wants to get involved.
cerreta
Premium Member
Yah, I used to attend the club meetings. Only a few would attend and people did not seem interested in discussions. Most people seem to find their answers on this forum. Deals are what people in this area seem to be most interested in.
Most of the frag swaps have 15+ people in attendence. Clubs produced 3-6 people. The numbers indicate that people are more interested in diversifying their reefs at a budget foremost, and discussions come at these events as a secondary facet.
It would be nice to increase the numbers and support for a club, but the club must offer more than discussions to keep people coming back.
I like the idea Mike presented with the Oklahoma events. It would be nice to get more information on their sucesses.
Most of the frag swaps have 15+ people in attendence. Clubs produced 3-6 people. The numbers indicate that people are more interested in diversifying their reefs at a budget foremost, and discussions come at these events as a secondary facet.
It would be nice to increase the numbers and support for a club, but the club must offer more than discussions to keep people coming back.
I like the idea Mike presented with the Oklahoma events. It would be nice to get more information on their sucesses.
cerreta
Premium Member
Yah, this is accurate, I agree. Unfortuneatly, not all of us have been treated fairly as valued customers by these stores and remain bitter. Some of these stores lack integrity, are dishonest, and have inconsistent practices, like not keeping the doors open for business during business hours. I can share several experiences that would drop your jaws about dishonesty. And I know of several others who have had similar experiences as well. Despite these experiences they keep shopping at these stores! HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE? It's because we lack better options.
There was only one store I have been to in Tucson that ran a legitimate shop, Aquatic Oasis. . . I miss you Zach.
Sometimes I wonder how these shops can stay in business with these standards. IMO, these stores do not earn the business they get. They get it because there are no other options for shopping in Tucson. This is why I have chosen and encourage others to frequent the stores in Phoenix. I feel welcome there and they run legitamate, honest businesses. For those who have not been to those stores, try em out and I think you will see the difference in price, quality, and professionalism.
I also believe that part of us being a group is the freedom to voice our opinions and experiences, whether positive or negative, about these shops without the fear of them becoming upset or retaliatory. It is through this avenue that we can express our interests in what a shop should offer. Smart and successful businesses have the ability to know what customers want and they find a way to meet those demands.
How many local stores have suggestion boxes? None that I know of. These stores are not interested in knowing what the customers want, they just sense our needs and make changes based on those perceptions. This is why they are failing.
Open the ears! Many customers are not happy. More reason why hobbyist activities (frag/club events and this forum) should have no ties to the LFSs. IMO, these events and this forum are intended for hobbyists, not professionals. If the shops want to have a forum for there customers, then they should create a website and build a forum for those customers, like many stores do, like Premium Aquatics.
If you go to the Phonix forum you will find open honest discussions about LFSs without interference from them. People up there argue about what is good and not good about the stores, but these arguments come from the hobbyists, not a defensive store worker/owner. The only pro I know that frequents the Phoenix forum is Skip. However, he consistently avoids any issuses dealing with the store he works at. He lets the customers deal with those issues, and he respects their right to do so. He is on the forum to promote the hobby and not the store, About the Reef, as it should be. Hobbyists should have a place to go to express their opinions. This should be the place.
One last comment, as I l u u u v e to get wordy! The biggest complaint hobbyists have about ATR is their consistently high prices. Low and behold, as of last month they are now lower!!! And they offer special sales and events with even lower prices on occasion. This shop has an ear for the customer. That is what makes it successful and professional.
cerreta
Premium Member
Sorry, I'm not sure this is a fair assessment. I have no idea what their revenues are, or what they consider to be a sucess to be, hopefully it's more than just revenues.
I was trying to say:
This is why customers on this forum remain bitter and are genuinely unhappy with some of the stores in Tucson. It is hard to give the Cali guy advice of where to shop, when he is asking customers that have been abused by these stores. We should have the right to tell him we are unhappy, if we are. That is why he came to this forum.
He did give us some useful outside information about our stores and compared it to Cali stores. This is insightful. However, to put things in perspective, he visited these shops ONLY one time. I was happy with all of these stores at one time too. But give him a year to shop here and his opinons would change based on frequent visits, not just one. These may be favorable or not favorable, but they certainly would be different after a year of shopping. Just like my opinion and many others around here has changed.
If you watched the sneaky way Hector used the hobby experience/current tanks section to post comments and threats then erase them. That should give you insight as to why I steer people away from him and his store. We are coming into the bad times for SW in Tucson, July/August are bad for new stock, should be a interesting Monsoon. As for the Club idea, I still think it would go better if someone found a meet place that would be available monthly, like a Pizza Hut with a meeting room. That would give people a reason to go and to stick around. Its unfair to hold it at peoples homes since some do not have the room.
cerreta
Premium Member
John, I agree. That is my point with professionalism. It is a trait of his character, lack of honesty and integrity.
Some may enjoy his store, but some do not and its not the store so much as how it is managed. I choose not to be a customer at his store because of his behavior. Same goes with Rob at SWS. Both lack professionalism and honesty in my experiences with them.
I strongly believe these guys should stay away from the forums. They do not have the ability to view critism in a way that would benefit them.
It is a more logical approach to view negative opinons on this forum as a voice from a dissatified customer. And the best way to treat a dissastified customer is to win back their business with genuine customer service the next time they come into the store. Then, let that positive experience change the customer in a way that she/he takes the experience back to the forums spreading goodness. This is the way I have seen it work in Phoenix and why I choose to go there. Want a better business? Heed to the advice. Treat your customers better and act professionally.
Some may enjoy his store, but some do not and its not the store so much as how it is managed. I choose not to be a customer at his store because of his behavior. Same goes with Rob at SWS. Both lack professionalism and honesty in my experiences with them.
I strongly believe these guys should stay away from the forums. They do not have the ability to view critism in a way that would benefit them.
It is a more logical approach to view negative opinons on this forum as a voice from a dissatified customer. And the best way to treat a dissastified customer is to win back their business with genuine customer service the next time they come into the store. Then, let that positive experience change the customer in a way that she/he takes the experience back to the forums spreading goodness. This is the way I have seen it work in Phoenix and why I choose to go there. Want a better business? Heed to the advice. Treat your customers better and act professionally.
cerreta
Premium Member
No, I am on topic, which is:
And this "new approach" involves the LFSs. I think they should stay away from hobbyist forums. That is what my comments are referring to. What do people think about this?
I have heard it brought up at most frag events. Most people do not like the professionals at the events and a few do not seem to mind. There is a difference between pros being invited, like Frank, and those just turning up.
I would propose a new approach of not having them there and not having them in these forums. Do others agree or disagree? What are the feelings and other issues surrounding this idea?
Mike, can you get more info on the Ok group functions. They must have some set of bilaws if they function as a "club"
And this "new approach" involves the LFSs. I think they should stay away from hobbyist forums. That is what my comments are referring to. What do people think about this?
I have heard it brought up at most frag events. Most people do not like the professionals at the events and a few do not seem to mind. There is a difference between pros being invited, like Frank, and those just turning up.
I would propose a new approach of not having them there and not having them in these forums. Do others agree or disagree? What are the feelings and other issues surrounding this idea?
Mike, can you get more info on the Ok group functions. They must have some set of bilaws if they function as a "club"
aztbs
Active member
When I first started attending the FRAG meetings in Phoenix, there were little more than 6-10 people that would show up. They were cool folks. BUT, there was a lot of PROP bashing and grumbling about location. There were some huge dramas regarding pests and fair trades. No matter how nice your brother's club is, I guarantee that where there are people, there will eventually be drama and politics.
I only bring this up to say that now the FRAG group meetings once a month get 50+ people. The Auctions have 150 items. The new PROP people are hard working and awesome and bring in cool stuff. We have made trips together, seen several types of demonstrations, and have a travelling party at reefer's homes. I'd say it is quite a successful "club" even though there are no officers and no bylaws. This group wasn't interested in the formality.
I get wordy too - what I am getting at is that this kind of stuff doesn't just spring up overnight. We have highs and lows. We have good stores and bad stores. We have good people and generous people and greedy people and deceitful people.
Events take planning. So if you want to see things happen, try organizing one. You can't suggest a new approach and then wait for someone else to change things. Start the first donor program. Organize a trip to a public aquarium.
I think dogstar is totally right - a positive, inspiring, encouraging "leader" will get people to participate. Hang in there!
I only bring this up to say that now the FRAG group meetings once a month get 50+ people. The Auctions have 150 items. The new PROP people are hard working and awesome and bring in cool stuff. We have made trips together, seen several types of demonstrations, and have a travelling party at reefer's homes. I'd say it is quite a successful "club" even though there are no officers and no bylaws. This group wasn't interested in the formality.
I get wordy too - what I am getting at is that this kind of stuff doesn't just spring up overnight. We have highs and lows. We have good stores and bad stores. We have good people and generous people and greedy people and deceitful people.
Events take planning. So if you want to see things happen, try organizing one. You can't suggest a new approach and then wait for someone else to change things. Start the first donor program. Organize a trip to a public aquarium.
I think dogstar is totally right - a positive, inspiring, encouraging "leader" will get people to participate. Hang in there!
boydx6
Premium Member
Tucson Reef Keepers
Tucson Reef Keepers
Hello Tucson,
It sounds like you are where the Tampa Bay Reef Club was a couple months ago. The meetings only had 6-10 people show up and it was more of a social gathering than a club meeting. We have has 20-30 attend each of the last 2-3 meetings. Quite an improvement. At least half joined. At these last 3 meeting, we have had local reefers teach about specific areas of reef keeping that the board wanted to learn about. (diy projects, Randy's 2-part, deep sand bed vs shallow sand bed vs bare bottom) The sky is the limit on topics. I doubt that Tucson has ANYONE that knows it all. I can honestly say that even our most experienced members learn something at each meeting. We have had DIY projects to make calcium reactors, rock, and next weekend we will be making reflectors similar to the luminarc reflectors. If you want the club to be successful, someone will have to step up and start to get it organized and get everyone interested. If you can keep the interest, the club will be successful no matter the size! That is my 2 cents.
Tucson Reef Keepers
Hello Tucson,
It sounds like you are where the Tampa Bay Reef Club was a couple months ago. The meetings only had 6-10 people show up and it was more of a social gathering than a club meeting. We have has 20-30 attend each of the last 2-3 meetings. Quite an improvement. At least half joined. At these last 3 meeting, we have had local reefers teach about specific areas of reef keeping that the board wanted to learn about. (diy projects, Randy's 2-part, deep sand bed vs shallow sand bed vs bare bottom) The sky is the limit on topics. I doubt that Tucson has ANYONE that knows it all. I can honestly say that even our most experienced members learn something at each meeting. We have had DIY projects to make calcium reactors, rock, and next weekend we will be making reflectors similar to the luminarc reflectors. If you want the club to be successful, someone will have to step up and start to get it organized and get everyone interested. If you can keep the interest, the club will be successful no matter the size! That is my 2 cents.
cerreta
Premium Member
Thanks for the comments. I know there is a lot of interest in topics, and there is plenty of people experienced to give these presentations.
We could start by gathering a list of presenters and what topics they are experienced with.
Then, it seems very feasible that we could include a 1 hour presentaion with a Frag Swap to follow. Like John suggested, we need to arrange a neutral meeting room. This would serve as a more predictable location for people to gather rather than driving to multiple peoples homes.
I will start a new thread on this idea.
We could start by gathering a list of presenters and what topics they are experienced with.
Then, it seems very feasible that we could include a 1 hour presentaion with a Frag Swap to follow. Like John suggested, we need to arrange a neutral meeting room. This would serve as a more predictable location for people to gather rather than driving to multiple peoples homes.
I will start a new thread on this idea.
This is sounding more like what my brother is experiencing and what I would like to see. My wife and I are spread pretty thin with work and family, but would be willing to be on a committee to organize such a club. Saturday's work best for our family. Perhaps we could alter locations between Sierra Vista and Tucson so no one has to travel all of the time. I recommend meeting every other month at first to enable people to plan events and make any arrangements that are needed. Any other volunteers? - Mark and Ana
