Critique my hypo plan

[crvz]

I've got a ~420 gallon display system (300 tank with 120 sump) that is relatively new. I set it up early this year, an upgrade from previous tanks and a rather big build as we moved into a new home. I added a handful of fish back in April or so, and I didnt QT them because, quite simply, they were the first fish in the tank. I wasnt risking the health of other fish, so no big deal, right?

Well, it's hell trying to catch fish in a tank that size, and when I noticed ich I decided to play the patient game; see how or if they improve before rushing into solutions. The result, though, was that I waiting too long. By the time I caught the fish and transferred them into my QT system, many were terribly stressed. I only had a purple tang survive (I lost 4 other fish) the original hypo treatment, which was 30 days at 1.009 followed by 30 days of observation at 1.025 (putting the purple tang back in the display in late June).

But here's the rub; I was never able to catch the yellow canary wrasse, and it remained in the display. For that first round, I was never fallow. It was a gamble (or, in hindsight, a pointless round of treatment), but I didnt want to tear the tank apart to catch it. Fast forward to beginning of October, and I see spots on the purple tang again. On October 12th, I pulled out all the rock and captured the fish the old fashion way after my trap patience wore out; a big net and nowhere to hide.

Today I began dropping the salinity in my QT system; a 120 gallon tank with 20 gallon sump. I have a couple of koralia 3 powerheads and a vortech mp10, as well as a mag 7 return pump. This QT is bare-bottom, but I've maintained about 50-70 pounds of live rock in it as biological filtration. There is no skimmer, but I do have an auto top-off. Again, I intend 30 days of 1.009 and then another 30 days of 1.025 for observation. I plan on putting fish back in the display around December 14th (9 weeks of a fallow display) assuming all goes well with the treatment. I have only seen 2-3 white spots on the purple tang, so that has been the only observable parasite, with the exception of both the purple and chevron tangs "scratching" along the sand bed in the display. The other fish include the yellow canary wrasse, a pair of bi-color blennies, and a juvenile naso tang.

Sorry for the book of a post; anyone have any thoughts on this? What might I be screwing up? I think this follows the intent of a typical hypo treatment with the exception of the rock being kept in the tank, but I think the blennies and wrasse will be much more content with the rock in place for hiding. I will do consistent water changes and watch for ammonia levels on a regular basis.

 

[b0bab0ey]

Sounds like you're doing it all right this time around. I've never done hypo myself, but everything I've read states that for it to be completely successful you *must* keep your SG at 1.009 with *no fluctuation.* Also, I'm not entirely sure that if a secondary bacterial infection arises while treating in hypo, you can safely administer antibiotics.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I would be ready for ammonia, due to the die-off from all that LR at the SG required for hypo. IMO, there are better ways to cycle a QT tank; but if you've already got things going, you'll have to monitor ammonia and prepare for plenty of water changes. You may even have to use one of the ammonia neutralizing products (Ammo-Lock, Prime, etc.). I assume you have a good, well-calibrated refractometer? Also, top-off is a problem with a larger tank & hypo. just a few hours of increased SG, because of evaporation, could allow a new parasite to find a fish host and ruin your treatment plan. An ATO would be a big help.

 

[crvz]

I've got an ATO, so that's not an issue, and yep, I'm using a refractometer. I'll keep my eyes peeled for ammonia. Thanks.

 

[b0bab0ey]

I would be ready for ammonia, due to the die-off from all that LR at the SG required for hypo.

I'd like to know once and for all if hypo kills bacteria living in LR. Does it kill most but just not all? I've seen so many different opinions on this...

 

[crvz]

thanks for the tips. I've got some amquel on hand, and I'll check my ammonia levels regularly. So far everything looks pretty good, but I'm only down to about 1.014 so far. I'll bring it down the rest of the way later today.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I'd like to know once and for all if hypo kills bacteria living in LR. Does it kill most but just not all? I've seen so many different opinions on this...

This isn't the definitive answer your looking for; but at least, a partial answer/opinion. I haven't used hypo in a long time, but have used it in the past with well-seeded sponge filters. These filters had enough aerobic bacteria to eliminate ammonia in my QT and never did cause any measurable ammonia spike. But anaerobic bacteria really doesn't colonize in a sponge like it does in LR; but I doubt it would matter anyhow. Nitrate isn't a factor in a QT and even if the hypo did kill all all of the anaerobic bacteria, I can't imagine it causing any kind of ammonia problem. However, the problem I referred to above was concerning all of the other plant and animal life in good, mature LR. If all of this life is killed by the hypo, and I think much is, then an ammonia spike could be a problem (IMO). In any case, I think LR is a poor choice for a bio-filter in any QT situation for different reasons, depending on the QT routine. However, if the hobbyist isn't ready with a seeded sponge or filter pad; it may be the only option. It isn't necessary to have to fight with ammonia while you have a fish in QT. I've posted the following a zillion times and I think its a foolproof method to avoid ammonia in a QT and to always be ready to cycle a HT/QT on a moments notice:

In regards to Qt cycling; I've done this for years. Get a HOB filter; I really like Aqua-Clear, they have a huge sponge and the A.C. filter lasts forever. Don't use the carbon or ceramic noodles that come with the filter. Also, have some extra sponges on hand, they're cheap. Keep a sponge in the flow somewhere in your DT. When you need a QT or HT, just use the sponge that has been in your main system in your QT filter---the QT will be instantly cycled. When done, toss the sponge out and keep a new one ready in your main system. This method avoids having to battle ammonia in a HT/QT; you have enough to worry about, ammonia shouldn't be one of them.
BTW, Cupramine copper, used in a QT,will not destroy a bio-filter."

 

[b0bab0ey]

This isn't the definitive answer your looking for; but at least, a partial answer/opinion. I haven't used hypo in a long time, but have used it in the past with well-seeded sponge filters. These filters had enough aerobic bacteria to eliminate ammonia in my QT and never did cause any measurable ammonia spike. But anaerobic bacteria really doesn't colonize in a sponge like it does in LR; but I doubt it would matter anyhow. Nitrate isn't a factor in a QT and even if the hypo did kill all all of the anaerobic bacteria, I can't imagine it causing any kind of ammonia problem. However, the problem I referred to above was concerning all of the other plant and animal life in good, mature LR. If all of this life is killed by the hypo, and I think much is, then an ammonia spike could be a problem (IMO).

I both appreciate and respect your opinion. So, if I'm understanding you correctly: Administering hypo in, say, a DT w/LR, pods, macro algae, etc. The 1.009 SG would kill all of the corals, inverts, macro algae... That is pretty much a given, correct? But hypo would also kill all your pods and "life" living in the LR, but not necessarily the bacteria itself. The resulting die-off would be the thing that would cause a potential ammonia spike, not the lack of bacteria. Are we on the same page?

In regards to Qt cycling; I've done this for years. Get a HOB filter; I really like Aqua-Clear, they have a huge sponge and the A.C. filter lasts forever. Don't use the carbon or ceramic noodles that come with the filter. Also, have some extra sponges on hand, they're cheap. Keep a sponge in the flow somewhere in your DT. When you need a QT or HT, just use the sponge that has been in your main system in your QT filter---the QT will be instantly cycled. When done, toss the sponge out and keep a new one ready in your main system. This method avoids having to battle ammonia in a HT/QT; you have enough to worry about, ammonia shouldn't be one of them.
BTW, Cupramine copper, used in a QT,will not destroy a bio-filter."

I knew from all the times I've used copper in a s/w tank with an u/g filter and not once did it ever crash afterwards that the whole "copper destroys bio-filters" thing was BS. Ironically though, it looks like we might be moving soon and if we do, I plan on ditching my u/g QT and giving bare bottom a try. It's annoying having to constantly re-dose the copper to keep it at .5 due to the crushed coral absorbing it. Not to mention being paranoid about always keeping a damsel in it to maintain bacteria levels. I own 4 or 5 AC power filters, one I even modded into a mini-fuge. I love them! I plan on running an AC 70 w/ a seeded foam in my 29g QT.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I think we're on the same page. I don't know for sure what hypo conditions will and will not kill; but LR is so full of diverse life that some of it has to die. The ammonia from die-off with newly purchased LR is similar, IMO.

I've never had an ammonia problem in QT since i started using a seeded sponge and an AquaClear filter.IMO & IME, its cheap, easy, always ready and fool-proof. BTW, I was doing this before AC started adding the bags of ceramic noodles, just the huge sponge in an AC filter provides plenty of room to culture aerobic bacteria and just throwing out the cheap sponges is one less worry. The noodles will work, but the AC filters did a great job with ammonia/nitrite long before the noodles came with the filter.

 

[crvz]

Thanks for all the input so far. Here's the tank today at 1.009, everything looks pretty good so far.

 

[crvz]

Just to follow up... I tested ammonia daily for the last 3 weeks or so and never registered anything. I've only done two twenty gallon water changes over that time period and do not have a skimmer on this tank. So as far as I can tell, there was not a significant die off from going to 1.009. The fish are all doing well thus far; eating vigorously and behaving as expected. I'll probably start bringing up the salinity one week from today.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Just to follow up... I tested ammonia daily for the last 3 weeks or so and never registered anything. I've only done two twenty gallon water changes over that time period and do not have a skimmer on this tank. So as far as I can tell, there was not a significant die off from going to 1.009. The fish are all doing well thus far; eating vigorously and behaving as expected. I'll probably start bringing up the salinity one week from today.

Glad its going well. Even hypo won't kill all that cyno, tough stuff.