CS-1 recirc skimmer pros and cons

[Avast Marine]

After all the feedback from this thread we decided implement all the requested changes. The silencer is now much higher on the skimmer, uses a larger silencer body so no more filler material is needed. The recirc kit is now included with the base kit and smoked cone is no longer an upcharge. The neck connections are now being CNC cut and are a better fit than the ones we used to produce on the lathes.

We named it "First Mates Edition" in honor of the posters in this thread, thanks for helping us make improvements to the product!

The effluent pipe assembly with the new silencer is available as a upgrade kit for those wishing to do so. http://www.avastmarine.com/ssc/do/product/youbuilt/CS1-Upgrade-Kit

Regards,

 

[disaster999]

I decided to try out the CS1 Effluent Pipe Upgrade Kit since it has a larger silencer and redesigned position which solves the problem of the silencer being filled with water, espcially with recirculating mod, when the skimmer is turned off.

I wasnt particularly pleased with how they added more T fittings and extra pipe just to elevate the silencer but I still went with it. While the package is being delivered, I thought of another way of improving the overall design.

Another problem I was having with the skimmer was even with the valve all the way open, it was still not enough to calm down the skimmer during heavy feedings. I have to run the valve mostly wide open during normal operation and that was a huge pain.

I decided to fix this by lowering the gate valve so its not sitting half way up the skimmer. Also instead of adding a few T's and an extra length of pipe to elevate the silencer. I added a long piece of pipe from the gate valve and attached the silencer and valve knob. The parts finally arrived and i went to work. This is what I came up with

I think this is a much more elegant and efficient design, reducing unneeded parts and foot print of the skimmer. Basically I didnt need to use the extra length of piping or T fittings or elbows. I basically paid $33 for the silencer body itself and the glue that came with the kit. I hope Avast seriously consider this mod for their next edition of their CS-1 skimmer

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Speaking of the upgrade kit, I was pretty disappointed. First of all, the fit of the parts were pretty poor. I had to heavily sand the PVC pipes in order for them to fit in the groves of the acrylic. I know there might be variations in the PVC pipes themselves but there isnt a need to machine them to such a tight tolerance especially when they will be glued later. The silencer body was a really tight fit in the groves in the acrylic as well. I had to pound the pieces together to get them to sit properly inside the grove. And in doing so, micro cracks was form on the silencer body near the edge. Also, throwing the emery cloth in a bag with unprotected acrylic parts leads to tones of micro scratches as you can see in my picture. Overall the quality seems to have degraded from last time I've bought the CS-1

Second, I was surprised it didnt come with an extra valve assembly given the kit did come with an extra "valve body" and the new acrylic plate with the threads. I email Justin about it since I cant remove my valve body because everything is glued down, but a managed to hack up my old valve and salvage the internals. Others who ordered this might not be so lucky.

Lastly, if this is an upgrade kit for those who bought the CS-1 before, and this upgrade kit is for elevating the silencer so water cant rush into it when the skimmer is off, then wouldnt it be logical to include a longer air tubing?????? Luckily I found some scrap piece of tubing and hacked apart my old silencer for the rigid tubing and made an extension. But something such as this shouldnt be missed.

Im not sure what they can do to settle these problems for me. I basically solved their problem with fixes of my own. Sending me the missing parts and replacement tubing doesnt really do me any good, nor do I just want to leave it at that.

 

[Avast Marine]

disaster,

First, the effluent pipe kit does not add any more footprint to the cs1, there is an additional tee in the assembly and the additional riser tube to elevate the silencer. We did it this way so the integrity of the original supplied valve would stay in tact, we supplied an extra tee (valve body) since this is the only part of the original cs1 kit that was supposed to be glued. The rest of the valve components easily unscrew and then can be re installed on the new valve body assembly which we provide. Also, by using the 2 tee approach it allowed us to make this available as an upgrade kit rather than simply a new feature on current skimmers.

I'm not sure I understand why having the valve all the way open causes you a huge pain, if you simply regulate the water through the skimmer, this problem goes away without the use of any tools. Lowering the valve assembly and preforming modifications to the supplied parts is definitely taking things to the extreme.

As far as fit and tolerances are concerned, all parts are machined to the smallest tolerance of the supplied mating parts, yes our machining tolerances are tighter than the manufactures tolerances of pipe and tube. We do this so final fit can be performed on the equipment during assembly. We do this 100's of times a day at the shop and it is a big part of building equipment. We only have 1 set of parts we make, those are used in here for assembling products we make and they are the same ones supplied in the kits we sell. If we were to hand fit every component that is supplied in a kit, we would finish what we started and drop a bead of glue down afterwards, meaning we wouldn't offer kits because for all intensive purposes gluing is the easy part.

I hope I am not coming across too harsh here, but how you have modified your skimmer is not in any way how the upgrade kit was intended to be implemented. I don't think you solved any problem here other than figuring out how to incorrectly put together the kit on a skimmer that was incorrectly put together in the first place. I am glad you came up with a solution though, that seems to solve the problems you had.

 

[disaster999]

disaster,

First, the effluent pipe kit does not add any more footprint to the cs1, there is an additional tee in the assembly and the additional riser tube to elevate the silencer. We did it this way so the integrity of the original supplied valve would stay in tact, we supplied an extra tee (valve body) since this is the only part of the original cs1 kit that was supposed to be glued. The rest of the valve components easily unscrew and then can be re installed on the new valve body assembly which we provide. Also, by using the 2 tee approach it allowed us to make this available as an upgrade kit rather than simply a new feature on current skimmers.

Yes I'm fully aware why you guys opted to go with the 2 T approach because you do not have to do anything to your tooling or resign any part of the skimmer. You are basically adding a T and a extra length of pipe. I wont spend time debating manufacturing processes and cost with you, I'm just simply stating Ive found a better solution IMO.

Gluing of the threads on the knob and valve body wasnt required as per your instructions, but was stated as a suggestion. And like you said, the PVC and acrylic swells over time being exposed to moisture so it has become extremely difficult to operate the valve without unscrewing the knob. Therefore I glued everything in place. Others might have done the same and would be left high and dry. I would suggest stating what's included with the kit and what is to be reused.

What about the air hose not being long enough? You really expect us to do what I did and salvage the old tube from the old silencer to make an extention?

I'm not sure I understand why having the valve all the way open causes you a huge pain, if you simply regulate the water through the skimmer, this problem goes away without the use of any tools. Lowering the valve assembly and preforming modifications to the supplied parts is definitely taking things to the extreme.

The problem I have with the valve's location is, in my situation, even with the valve all the way open, it will not create a low enough water level inside the skimmer to prevent it from exploding and overflowing. How is it normal to run the skimmer with the valve almost 100% open all the time? If modifying the skimmer to this "œextreme" is the only way for it to work properly then there is a serious problem somewhere.

As far as fit and tolerances are concerned, all parts are machined to the smallest tolerance of the supplied mating parts, yes our machining tolerances are tighter than the manufactures tolerances of pipe and tube. We do this so final fit can be performed on the equipment during assembly. We do this 100's of times a day at the shop and it is a big part of building equipment. We only have 1 set of parts we make, those are used in here for assembling products we make and they are the same ones supplied in the kits we sell. If we were to hand fit every component that is supplied in a kit, we would finish what we started and drop a bead of glue down afterwards, meaning we wouldn't offer kits because for all intensive purposes gluing is the easy part.

Again, not going to debate about manufacturing processes. Just simply stating my observations. The fit and finish from when I first got the skimmer to when I got this upgrade kit surely have dropped.

I hope I am not coming across too harsh here, but how you have modified your skimmer is not in any way how the upgrade kit was intended to be implemented. I don't think you solved any problem here other than figuring out how to incorrectly put together the kit on a skimmer that was incorrectly put together in the first place. I am glad you came up with a solution though, that seems to solve the problems you had.

I hope you understand where I'm coming from here. Im sorry if I came out sounding like and ***, I'm not here to bash on your product, just trying to help you out like how I did by starting this thread in the first place. We wouldn't have the upgrade kit if you guys didn't listen. I just want to help improve an awesome product. Like I said before, if someone have to go to the "œextreme" and "œincorrectly" put together your product to get it to work properly, then its something that's worth looking into. Hell, maybe its only me, everyone's tank setup and water parameters is different. Who knows.

It was a fun process for me to reconfigure the skimmer to the way it is now and I like how most components are mostly off the shelf parts. I probably wouldn't be able to fix my skimmer if it weren't for that.

 

[Avast Marine]

Yes I'm fully aware why you guys opted to go with the 2 T approach because you do not have to do anything to your tooling or resign any part of the skimmer. You are basically adding a T and a extra length of pipe. I wont spend time debating manufacturing processes and cost with you, I'm just simply stating Ive found a better solution IMO.

I'm glad you found a solution that works for you. To be fair though, you didn't actually give our design a chance, you redesigned it before it even got to you.

Gluing of the threads on the knob and valve body wasnt required as per your instructions, but was stated as a suggestion. And like you said, the PVC and acrylic swells over time being exposed to moisture so it has become extremely difficult to operate the valve without unscrewing the knob. Therefore I glued everything in place. Others might have done the same and would be left high and dry. I would suggest stating what's included with the kit and what is to be reused.

What about the air hose not being long enough? You really expect us to do what I did and salvage the old tube from the old silencer to make an extention?

When putting together the parts for a retro kit, we simply took a cs1 off the shelf that was a display model built as per the original instructions with all original parts in tact and upgraded it to the current design. Any parts required to make that upgrade were included. If parts were modified or tubing cut shorter, it is beyond our control and beyond the scope of what we can realistically account for.

The problem I have with the valve's location is, in my situation, even with the valve all the way open, it will not create a low enough water level inside the skimmer to prevent it from exploding and overflowing. How is it normal to run the skimmer with the valve almost 100% open all the time? If modifying the skimmer to this "œextreme" is the only way for it to work properly then there is a serious problem somewhere.

Like I said, if you are getting flooding when you perform heavy feedings and you have the valve all the way open, the correct action is to regulate the water flow through the skimmer. For a recirculating skimmer, you valve back the input pump. For a non-recirc you lower the water level in your sump or raise the skimmer slightly. Someone with a smaller tank and a lighter bioload will find that the valve is almost all the way closed during normal operation. This is not abnormal operation, just the way all skimmers work when being installed on a range of tank sizes in the real world. Lowering the valve will work to solve the problem, but it is simply not the recommended solution for most folks when the alternative is very easy to perform.

Again, not going to debate about manufacturing processes. Just simply stating my observations. The fit and finish from when I first got the skimmer to when I got this upgrade kit surely have dropped.

The fit may indeed be different, like stated it is just the nature of standard tolerances. 1/2 the time you get a perfect fit, 1/2 the time you gotta break out the sandpaper. If we machined to the other side of the tolerance (loose fit) the glue joints would be weak and ugly. I disagree wholeheartedly with the finish though, I have parts here on the shelf from the batch you received and they are machined very nicely, well within our specifications.

I hope you understand where I'm coming from here. Im sorry if I came out sounding like and ***, I'm not here to bash on your product, just trying to help you out like how I did by starting this thread in the first place. We wouldn't have the upgrade kit if you guys didn't listen. I just want to help improve an awesome product. Like I said before, if someone have to go to the "œextreme" and "œincorrectly" put together your product to get it to work properly, then its something that's worth looking into. Hell, maybe its only me, everyone's tank setup and water parameters is different. Who knows.

It was a fun process for me to reconfigure the skimmer to the way it is now and I like how most components are mostly off the shelf parts. I probably wouldn't be able to fix my skimmer if it weren't for that.

I do understand and am happy you are posting, I just want to make it clear to others, that what you have done is well outside the standard "upgrade" and the final example is not representative of what the final upgrade will be, if built as intended. We are proud that we listen to our customers, we constantly are tweaking the designs and improving the products, some is driven by our own innovation, some is base on feedback from you guys and gals.

The only thing that even in the slightest bit upsets me about this situation is that you didn't submit a ticket on the site explaining your unique situation, you instead posted a rather negative review here as your first course of action. I understand you glued your valve together now and that your airline is too short, but if you don't at least give us the chance to know about the problem, how are we supposed to be able to do the right thing and offer to fix the problem?