Cuttlefish Food

[Bubbashrimp]

available food...some cuttlefish food, in my opinion is boring. I would like to see a wider array of foods out there. Esspecialy live marine foods, GET RID OF FRESHWATER FOOD FOREVER. The problem with this idea is price. We all know that this idea is expensive but here are the numbers anyway. Say I wanted to feed my cuttlefish 3 porcelin crabs, 3 blood reds and 1 cardinal every two weeks at current prices that would come out to be about $1612.00 a year(remembering that the cuttlefish is short lived) in food for 1 cuttlefish. Of course you could pick different different foods for different spieces as well as select for a better price. I just choose these to illustrate price. Futhermore if you happen to be a breeder this total bill goes up by a factor of the number of breeding cuttles you have. For example I believe Richard Ross is keeping 10-11 cuttlefish so his bill would be ~= $16,120.00/year for cuttlefish food. Immediatley this would look like insanity to other aquarist, but I am most certain that your LFS would love you!!! I would like to ascertain the interest in this. If there was a way to get around the the high price, say high output facility, non-profit of course, supported with only funds from people who would use this facility. PURPOSE: Better methods for keeping cuttlefish. DISCLAIMER: This is not market research for a company, In fact I pitty the fool that would run this. Also as you all might know I have been asking around alot about a kriesel. If something like this ever happened I would never have to build one YES!!

 

[Paradox009]

Ive kept 15 bandensis at once...

I spent about 30-40 dollars a week on marine shrimp and mixed in short caught crabs (free)

When the bandenis are larger, Ive been successful in using live bait (grass shrimp). I would cut the shrimp in half and instantly throw it in the tank. These shrinmp are 2-3 dollars a 1/4 lb from local bait shops.

I know richard uses shore crabs as well and I believe he is currently trying fresh water ghost shrimp. Im sure he will chime in soon.

If I didnt live near the shore, I probably wouldnt keep this many cuttles at once for it really does get expensive!

 

[Bubbashrimp]

I guess that living in minnesota does have its draw backs. So far It looks like I will have to just breed my own food. Does anyone have a breeding project to support the dietary needs of thier cuttlefish? Paradox009 are you the one who is intent on breedng a cuttlefish army? I was going to sign your guest but it seems to be full of xxx companies. Please consider this transmission as signing your book as I have thoroughly explored your site.

 

[DHyslop]

I don't know how feasible it is to breed your own feed. Right now my two cuttles, only a few months old, each eat about 4 shrimp a day. That means I go through a shipment of 100 in less than a few days. To have them breeding at a rate that would make that sustainable, I would need a population of shrimp greater than the number that will probably be fed to these two cuttles in their entire lives!

Dan

 

[Bubbashrimp]

I really do not know what to say to that? I can see my whole basement devoted towards supplying cuttlefish with food. If the basement was not big enough I would take over the garage, in addition to my basement, seal the doors and heat it. I guess I am crazy, I would like to see numbers though to see just how crazy i am.

 

[DHyslop]

Seems childish to me: why spend $5,000 to breed shrimp when the cuttles would only eat $1,000 worth?

 

[Bubbashrimp]

This is COMMON practice in buisness, to make an investment and then reap the rewards. The equation is PV = Pament*(1-(1/(1+i)^n))/i where i is the interest rate and the payment is $1000 in this problem. $5000 would be the PV or present value. if PV is less than or equal to the "other stuff" then it is considered a solid investment...that is "a good idea to breed your own food." Questions you should be asking yourself are: How long do I plan on keeping cuttlefish that is the variable n. n -> infinity is assumed for 30+ years then you are down to what is called a perpetuity. The only thing childish about this is i could care less about the equation what i care about is the cuttle.

 

[DHyslop]

Thanks for the math class refresher, bubba.

Your cuttles aren't going to live more than a year. And in that time there's probably only a couple months they'll be eating shore shrimp.

Have fun.

 

[kjbudsberg]

Well, I don't raise cuttles, but I do raise a colony of Euprymna for research and we face similar problems. We are in Madison WI, and getting live food, in the form of up to 10,000 (yes, 10,000) shrimp per week, is a real pain in my rear. In fact, ensuring a consistent supply of food is harder than keeping the squid happy and reproducing.

We have investigated several food options including marine and brackish water shrimp, crabs, small fish, and even rainbow trout fry. In my experience, brackish water shrimp are the mose cost effetive option for us. If anyone is interested in the reasons (they are kind of convoluted) I can elaborate.

That's my two cents.

 

[DHyslop]

KJ, I grew up in Madison and got my BS there.

You must be keeping a whole lot of bobtails if you go through ten thousand shrimp a week!

If I ever move back to Madison can you get me a good deal?

Dan

 

[Bubbashrimp]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7961300#post7961300 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kjbudsberg
Well, I don't raise cuttles, but I do raise a colony of Euprymna for research and we face similar problems. We are in Madison WI, and getting live food, in the form of up to 10,000 (yes, 10,000) shrimp per week, is a real pain in my rear. In fact, ensuring a consistent supply of food is harder than keeping the squid happy and reproducing.

We have investigated several food options including marine and brackish water shrimp, crabs, small fish, and even rainbow trout fry. In my experience, brackish water shrimp are the mose cost effetive option for us. If anyone is interested in the reasons (they are kind of convoluted) I can elaborate.

That's my two cents.

I would be very interested! Do you also have published work i can read? :eek1: are you working on luminescent bacteria perhaps?

 

[Bubbashrimp]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7961246#post7961246 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DHyslop
Thanks for the math class refresher, bubba.

Your cuttles aren't going to live more than a year. And in that time there's probably only a couple months they'll be eating shore shrimp.

Have fun.

I am mainly talking about aquaculture or a breeding operation. Where you would always have a constant supply of cuttles. n is not how long you would keep A cuttle n is how long you would be keeping cuttles. Do you remember what I even wrote "(remebering that the cuttlefish is short lived)"

 

[DHyslop]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7961525#post7961525 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bubbashrimp
I am mainly talking about aquaculture or a breeding operation. Where you would always have a constant supply of cuttles.

Breeding operations thus far haven't exactly been successful or even necessary when it comes down to it: there has been enough wild-caught eggs to satiate the hobby. Breeding has been mostly just for the personal rewards.

n is not how long you would keep A cuttle n is how long you would be keeping cuttles.

And how long are you going to be keeping cuttlefish? A month, a year, ten years, thirty years? Its hard enough to find someone willing to feed live food to your cuttles if you want to go out of town for a week: I can't imagine trying to find someone to do two or three hours of maintenance a day for a 1,500+ gallon feeder system. A service company would be happy to--for $50 an hour.

If you page through the ceph care forums at TONMO you can see dozens of other people that ask if they can breed their own feeders. Each and every one is told it isn't practical by those with experience keeping these animals. Most of the people who ask are transients who want to get a ceph as a decoration and think they can weasel their way out of the financial commitment. They soon lose interest and buy something else. Most of these people who do buy cephs end up being terribly bored when it sits under a rock hiding all day. They would feel pretty silly then if their feeder system cost more than a car!

Do you remember what I even wrote "(remebering that the cuttlefish is short lived)"

To be fair your original post was written in a "stream of consciousness" style and parts were a little hard to grasp. I understand that you asked for advice on breeding feeders, and three experienced ceph-keepers have told you it isn't worth it for them to breed their own.

There are plenty of places to get feeders for less than $1000 a month. If it really cost that much no one (except maybe Thales ) would keep these animals. Your estimates of how much each will eat are very conservative, but it seems like you're expecting to buy these things from LFS, which is a bad choice.

http://www.aquaculturestore.com

Three staples are sold by Sach's Aquaculture: mysid shrimp, shore shrimp and fiddler crabs. This is the cheapest supplier that most of us have found other than local bait shops.

Thales is also experimenting with freshwater shrimp. The results so far are promising. So far I haven't had much luck finding ghost shrimp that are as cheap as Sach's saltwater shrimp after shipping is considered.

Also keep in mind that many cuttles have been trained to eat thawed frozen shrimp. Although I haven't found supermarket shrimp small enough to try yet, my 3-month old cuttles will eat live shore shrimp out of my hands. This is a good sign because shore shrimp don't really move when you're holding them: my cuttles appear to be interested in the shrimp for their shape and not for their movement, so hopefully they will take to dead shrimp. I'm also happy that they're not afraid of my hand anymore--hopefully soon I will be able to entice one of them to sit in my palm.

Dan

 

[Bubbashrimp]

I respect your OPINION and I do value what everyone has to say. Tell me what are your views on this "In fact, ensuring a consistent supply of food is harder than keeping the squid happy and reproducing." You may want to look onto who the NRCC is they do a lot to support research in cuttlefish aquaculture. Or you can search Forsythe in the cephbase found here: http://www.cephbase.utmb.edu/ best of luck researching :thumbsup:

 

[DHyslop]

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Even the NRCC doesn't breed their own feed!

 

[Thales]

I believe my situation is different than most people - mainly because I have spent a couple of years trying to make it work and because I live in the SF Bay Area which gives me access to local, native food animals as well as an amazing amount of LFS that get their stock from local wholesalers.

After the raising the first batch of S. bandensis on mysids I decided that I wouldn't do it again unless I could find a cheaper food source, and discovered a decent way to collect the pods.

I live near the shore so I get to collect pods to raise the baby cuttlefish, and I get to collect crabs for the adults. I also have an incredibly good relationship with several LFS, so I get a very good deal on other foodstuffs. If I weren't able to supply food to the animals at a decent price, I simply couldn't afford to keep them.

I did look into raising my own food, both mysids and larger crabs. For me, it was both impractical and too expensive. Plus, the current unreliable nature of bandensis availability made any such investment seem like a bad - I went 6 months with an empty cuttle system because there were no cuttles of any kind available.

Feeding cuttlefish is a very daunting task, and shouldn't be taken lightly by anyone interested in keeping these animals.

RR

 

[Bubbashrimp]

Thales,

Thank you for making your breeding efforts public. I really enjoy watching your efforts and progress. Thank you for the article you wrote...There is definetly not enought information out there on cuttlefish! The artist you interviewed with the octopus scuplture, did you ask him if he would ever do a cuttlefish? Have you ever thought, that if your specific spieces where in decline, that some of your eggs produce, would be placed back into the enviroment?
Do you expereance fewer and fewer offspring with each mating? what are your thoughts on that, if you are? how much square footage do you allow for your operation?

thank you again,
bubba

 

[Bubbashrimp]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7964183#post7964183 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DHyslop
I don't understand what you're trying to say. Even the NRCC doesn't breed their own feed!

Your absolutley right! However, There are people interested in the aquaculture of cuttlefish(middleeast) and published papers seem to support this interest. Listen, all I am trying to say is that there is a lot of interest in cuttlefish propogation which includes research, aquaculture, breeding, and hobby. If salt water foods are the best source for cuttlefish nutrition, how do we go about aquiring this nuturition for all to utilize. I believe it is possible to produce saltwater foods cheaper then they are sold at LFS.

my point was not to get into an argument in which each side would disect the others side to try to find some logical flaw. That is not the reason I joined reef central. The reason I joined reef central was to ascertain answers to my questions. Valid questions that cannot be answered by most people I encounter in my everyday life. People like stomopodiatrist, who until recently i did not even know existed. I do appreciate some of the comments you have made, but in some way it got way off course from what i intended. I indended that people with a genuine concern like kjbudsberg and myself who are not fortunate enough to live near the ocean to solve this problem. I believe that a solution to this problem will advance cuttlefish husbandry.

 

[Thales]

Such an solution would be great. A lot of people have been thinking about it for a long time, and come up empty. If you come up with something, lots of people would be happy.