Desperate need of help - can't figure out what's wrong

Kahuna

New member
I've had my 90g up and running for about 10 months. Softies will grow like weeds, no fish problems, but LPS has mixed results and SPS - well, as they say in Jersey, fuggeddaboudit.

I'm using all of the local assets, who are a great bunch of people, and I use several of my knowledgable LFS's. I can't get this right.

Here's my system:

90g total water volume
90g tank
35g refugium sump - copepods alive and well, uses filter socks (socks washed weekly in bleach, rinsed twice again, and reinstalled in a week), live sand, copious cheato
mag 12 return - 3 outlets
Reef Octo 160 Extreme skimmer
Neptune Apex running the system
Two MP40W ES units running reef crest mode at 70% max output
BRS reactor running GFO and carbon
60 lbs live rock
40 lbs live sand My LFS that I really trust sez I bought the wrong stuff, as it turns black and purple - crushed coral, not sand. Plan is to replace it with Fiji pink in about 2 weeks when he gets it in

I built a DIY LED system for my 90g. It is comprised of 80 3W Cree XR-E LED's; 36 cool white, 36 royal blue, and 8 red. The red is just for me to "pretend" that it's sunrise and sunset. It's info is posted in the DIY thread.

The LED's use 70 degree optics, and are mounted 15" above the water surface. PAR readings can be found in my build thread, but I seem to have more than enough light (avg 255 PAR on the bottom at full output). There is a clear acrylic splash shield in front of each set of LED's (two sets for the tank). The whites and the blues are both set up for 750-800mA current output on each controller for best efficiency and longest life.

I run a four hour ramp on the blues and whites beginning at 9:30AM. The ramp is from 10% to 60% white, 80% blue and runs the 60%/80% mix for full daylight from 1:30PM to 6:30PM. Then there is a four-hour ramp down to 10%. After that, the mains are off and the moonlight LED's are on until 9:30AM the next day. The reds are on a 30 minute ramp up to 40% and then 30 min back down twice a day to simulate sunrise and sunset. Today I scaled both blue and white back by 10 and 20% respectively, so now 50% white and 60% bue.

I'm bleaching corals or outright killing corals everywhere, even frags that came from under 400W MH's. I bleached a deepwater granulosa frag 3" from the sand bed in 2 days. If I was to crank these up to 100% output, it seems as though the substrate on the tank bottom would be smokin', and I'm not jokin'.:sad1:

Lighting Photoperiod - total 12 hours
Refugium lighting runs 6PM -3 AM - is a 35w full spectrum PC
My salt is Tropic Marin Reef Pro.

Water parameters:
Water is OK - RO/DI - zero TDS
Max temp swing - 79.3-79.7 deg daily
pH - 7.8 - 8
Salinity - 36 ppm
Sp Gr - 1.026
Amm - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - was at 10 ppm or more - working on getting this to zero by using vodka in extremely small amounts daily. Dosage is 0.8ml, and my nitrates are now down to around 1-2ppm. Have been dosing for 1 month and am very careful.
Phosphate - 0 -
Calcium - 450-490 dosed manually when necessary
Alk - 8.3 dKH rock steady, maintained by AM Reefdoser and Randy's Recipe 1.
Mag - 1350 -1400

Water changes 20 gal every two weeks

Every Monti or Acro placed in the tank browns out or greys out, and dies. 2-weeks to do an acro, but the monti's will start to grey in 2 days.

LPS's and softies as well as fish were thriving, but recently had full polyp bailout from a goldentod torch, green torch, 2 lobophyllia, and a superb dendro. Removed all leathers except one and all other soft corals due to toxin and chem warfare questions.

These corals that are dying are anywhere in the tank. Doesn't matter wheter they are high, or low, or what. We feed live DT's green stuff, oyster eggs, cyclopeeze, as well as the usual for the fish and inverts, and target feed where necessary.

Here's a clue that nobody else can figure out: I have two Bali green slimer acros, and they are holding their own. I bought and planted an ORA Red Planet, and it's doing great, even grown an inch in a month. When the acros start going, they die from the tips, and often the tips will turn brown and soft/mushy. I've pulled the frags and checked for AEFW, redbugs, etc. No pests. There's a club member here who has the precise same identical lighting setup. My hardware, software, optics, photoperiod, etc., is identical to his. His acros are growing like weeds. and he's running his LED's flat out at 100%of output.

Please help. Tank is 9-10 mos old and established. Coralline is growing, no algae blooms, small amount of cyano in the fuge, but this gets wiped out during the water change with a paper towel. This is getting hugely expensive. I'm ready to put a .40 cal hollow-point through it, before my wife puts one through me.

I'm at my wits end.

HELP!!!

TIA
Kev
 
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A couple of points Do you have stray electricity running through your tank? If you remove your sand while the tank is up and running you can get ammonia spikes.
 
Very strange. Sounds like your setup is good.
Montipora are strong and shouldn't brown that fast even with high NO3 & PO4.
Crushed coral will not kill SPS coral. and even pest will not kill the coral in two weeks.

After you bleach your sock are you using some declor and soak in freshwater for a few days?
 
I like to see pH and Alk a little higher than yours, but you're not drastically off so it's likely not the issue. Any differences between corals growing in deeper water versus shallow? If so, lighting is likely the problem. An obvious choice would be to cut the lighting period back by a third, to 8 hours, including your ramping up.

What other occupants are in the tank, if any? Probably not the root cause but their behavior may provide clues.

Good luck,

Jeff
 
Since you are starting to lose all of your corals it sounds systemic. If your friend has good results with identical lighting it can't be that.

Few obvious questions.
Is it an old house that may still have lead in the pipes? Not sure how RO/DI does on lead.
Are you using copper plumbing (heard of multiple people doing this)?
Have you tried not bleaching your socks?
Discontinued vodka?
Is someone cleaning with chemicals near the tank?
Stray voltage?, I'd check for that.
Copper?, I'd test of that too.
Are you using a lot of lace rock?
Is that a dual reactor running the carbon/GFO or do you have them together in the same reactor?
Tried changing out your foods and reacquiring from different sources?, something could be bad.
Any poisonous/toxic fish or other livestock?

My best guess is that there is something in the water chemical/mineral that is incompatible with life for your corals. Copper presence is probably most likely, leeching from one of the tanks or the rocks. Previously thriving LPS/Softies which are now doing poorly suggests a buildup or worsening of the situation. Have you tried doing a large, like 75%+ WC, if that helps (or doesn't) it'll narrow it down some.
 
Any differences between corals growing in deeper water versus shallow? Nope.

If so, lighting is likely the problem. An obvious choice would be to cut the lighting period back by a third, to 8 hours, including your ramping up.
Cut back starting today by 10 and 20 %.

What other occupants are in the tank, if any? Probably not the root cause but their behavior may provide clues.

2 wrasses, 4 chromis, 1 tang, 1 anthias, 1 shrimp goby, horde of hermit crabs
 
Since you are starting to lose all of your corals it sounds systemic. If your friend has good results with identical lighting it can't be that.

Few obvious questions.
Is it an old house that may still have lead in the pipes? Not sure how RO/DI does on lead.
Are you using copper plumbing (heard of multiple people doing this)?
Have you tried not bleaching your socks?
Discontinued vodka?
Is someone cleaning with chemicals near the tank?
Stray voltage?, I'd check for that.
Copper?, I'd test of that too.
Are you using a lot of lace rock?
Is that a dual reactor running the carbon/GFO or do you have them together in the same reactor?
Tried changing out your foods and reacquiring from different sources?, something could be bad.
Any poisonous/toxic fish or other livestock?

My best guess is that there is something in the water chemical/mineral that is incompatible with life for your corals. Copper presence is probably most likely, leeching from one of the tanks or the rocks. Previously thriving LPS/Softies which are now doing poorly suggests a buildup or worsening of the situation. Have you tried doing a large, like 75%+ WC, if that helps (or doesn't) it'll narrow it down some.

newer house w/ copper piping, no stray volts, have not tried not bleaching the socks, had the problem prior to vodka, no lace rock, GFO/carbon in separate reactors, different foods, no poisonous fish or livestock.

I need to test for copper, it appears.

Thanks for the ideas, guys.
 
If things die that fast (2 days for monti and 2 weeks for acro), I would suspect either bad salt or something in the water. Are you running carbon? Have you ruled out bad salt?
 
I am thinking it's either copper or bad salt.

Where did you get the live rock? Is it possible that the rock or substrate was used from another individual that used a copper treatment in the past with a FOWLER?

Also, I have been getting feedback from several people about Tropic Marin distributing some bad salt lately. I had a personal friend of mine use it as well and some strange things happened. I will not go into detail about that, but you might want to look at current reviews about TM's product lately.

Check for copper and change salt - see where that put's you. I can't see anything else that we need to consider based on your information unless it some airborne chemical (maybe cleaner?) that is blowing into the system somehow.
 
How do I do that?

You mean to eliminate whether it's the salt? If so, I would try using another bucket from another LFS or switch out the brand entirely and keep doing water change to see if things improve. I would also run carbon just in case. If you suspect copper, run Polyp filter. It would indicate (by color) whether there is excess metals.
 
"No, I run them through two clear rinse cycles following the bleach and allow to air dry only. "

how do you rinse the socks? by the way you worded this, it sounds like in your washing machine????? if so, i'd stop that.

also, borrow your buddies test kits and re-test everything.....

did you paint or does someone clean around your tank?

i hope you can figure this out.... good luck
 
Yes, in the washing machine. Not with detergent, just with bleach. I was told by an LFS that this was OK. Is it?

I've got four buckets of the Tropic Marin salt...
 
Yes, in the washing machine. Not with detergent, just with bleach. I was told by an LFS that this was OK. Is it?

I've got four buckets of the Tropic Marin salt...

I have been washing my filter socks for years like that, no issues there.

How are you measuring Phos. Although a high reading would not kill corals that quickly, it is important to know whether the value is accurate or not. Any algae issues of any kind?

I too switched from TM Pro salt. I am not about to bash the product, I used it for years. But the last two buckets I got the results were all over the place.
 
Phosphate being measured with Salifert kit at high resolution usage. It seems that there's an issue with the recent formulation of TMPro salt based on some other texts I've read. Same results that I'm having.
 
I wanted to also post this that I made on a different forum because our problems are so very much alike. This was a few weeks ago, before things got worse.

My Solana has been up now for a few months and I have to admit, I'm not feeling that it's settled in 100%. I continue to have an issue where certain corals are receding and losing tissue for no good reason.

The specs: some repeated for ease of viewing.

34 gal Solana
5 lbs of LS
20 lbs of LR
Tunze 9002 skimmer
BRS dual reactor running 4 tablespoons of GFO and 2 of ROX 0.8 changed at 4/2 week intervals
28 CREE LEDs 12/12/4 Varied blue/white/tv coloration
DKH ~9.3 with minimal swings. Lowest was 8, highest was 10.
79 degrees with minimal swings between day/night
Ca 440
Mg ~1350
PH is at 7.8-8.0
Nitrates 10
PO4 .04
15% water changes using Max Cap RODI every 7 days, siphoning out the back chamber every 3rd change.
Tropic Marin Pro salt mixed to 1.025
10-8 photoperiod
MJ 900 return
MJ 600 rotary head
Tunze 6025 PH
1 drop of lugols every week.
Feed every other day frozen mysis or brine, etc.

I've had great success with my Tongue, Blastos, Acans, Zoas.
Mixed health at the moment is a Lobo Brain that looks stressed, and a Scoly that looks ok, but not as good as I think it could be. I also woke up this morning to a recently purchased frogspawn that looked like a head had been eaten by something. I pulled it out and cut that head off.
The SPS that I've had has pretty much all been lost to RTN evens, or slow bottom up loss of flesh. I have 1 green slimer that I recently added, so far so good.

So, all that being said, what am I doing wrong? It feels like I'm missing something, or I'm overdoing something.

Since this posting, I've had the lobo get worse.
The scoly is not looking good at all.
The other head of the frogspawn died.
The 2nd monti cap died out quickly.

The green slimer is doing ok.
My tongue is still doing fine, and so are my blastos and 4 out of 5 zoas.

For some time now I've been really ****ed off about all of this. My tank specs are within limits, and what changes have happened, as indicated above, have happened slowly over a period of weeks. Not to mention the LFS isn't sold on LED lights, even though I've taken PAR measurements and have 550 PAR at the midpoint in my tank.
 
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Did you pick a new salt yet?

Yep, we changed ALL 120 gallons in the system over to RSCP salt. Removed all of the (originally dry) Pukani rock and traded it in, removed an additional 40 pounds of Fiji and Timora, cleaned it with muriatic acid, and put 20 lbs in the tank and 20 lbs in the sump. Removed all of the rough crushed coral sand and replaced it with Fiji pink sand. Wiped out all of the crap in the bottom of the tank and rerouted the plumbing. Added an orange-spotted goby as a sand sifter.

Lost two peppermint shrimp in the process due to injury, nothing else.

All corals have recovered or are at least not getting worse in the case of my blue plate and my dendrophyllia. Two acro frags placed into the tank as crash test dummies doing great.

Holding alk at 11.6, calcium at 460, mg at 1380, nitrates at 2-5ppm.

Kev
 
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