Diving Taboo question

[TTU_Reefer]

Hi,

I had a question in reguards to the reason for how some divers have a taboo about other divers who carry spair air or a pony tank. I am going to buy one before my next trip reguardless but I wanted to understand more about why divers are against them it seems. Im a new diver, I have about 25 open water dives in mexico, Grand Cayman (favorite), florida, colorado, bahamas, New Mexico.

My understanding, divers who carry spair air do not "have a plan and dive the plan" because if you did their would be no need for spair air because they would never get low on air, they wouldnt ever be seperated form their buddy, and they would be able to handle any equiptment malfunction. I understand this..but how does it hurt to have one? I could see an arguement that a diver might rely on having it, get lazy because he has a crutch. push his air to the limit because he "has more". Those I agree are problems.

For me my reason is as follows: I am the only diver in my family/friends that go on trips with. When I go on vacation I like to dive every morning and one night dive during the trip. I usually am buddied with the dive master because im the odd person out or with a random diver on the boat. 5/10 times Id say when im with the dive master he/she doesnt stay with me or interact with me in a way a buddy would because they are busy with the whole group. The divemaster treats me more like one of the group than a buddy. One such time I was ready to return to the boat from 55' at 1000psi because I like to be dry with 500psi. I signled to the divemaster/my buddy I wished to return and had 1000psi. He signled that no I was "ok" and kept on with the dive. I got to 800psi, signled I was going to the boat and swam in the direction of the boat. I arrived with 400psi and did my 15' 3 min safety stop on the octo regs hanging down off the boat. I feel like if I had a dive buddy I knew and dove with frequently we would have ended our otherwise fantastic dive at 1000psi and had no problems.

On the other hand when I am with a random dive partner I am always worried not knowing his or her diving abilities or how they handle situations. If they panic and run outta air, and in there panic are sucking air down. It would be nice to have a spare air for me to use so we both can do our full safety stop.

Sorry for the long post, I just really dont understand why its taboo to dive with spare air/pony tanks.

Im buying one to use on dives where im not with a friend as a buddy. Id rather be looked at funny for having one and not need it than need it and not have it.

Cheers

 

[MERCURYROCKET]

feeling

feeling

its the same way i feel..........greg

 

[ackee]

Spare Air emergency air supply units have a bad reputation among the serious scuba crowd for one primary reason: they do not hold nearly enough air to allow a diver to safely reach the surface in the event of sudden equipment failure, or running out of air for whatever reason. The number of breaths available from a typical 2 c.f. Spare Air unit is only good for 3 or 4 breaths at 100 feet, probably resulting in a possibly deadly rush to the surface. No serious diver has any complaint about pony bottles of adequate size, a minimum of 15 c.f. for dives at moderate depths. In fact, redundant system pony bottles are required equipment in some types of diving. There are many, many DIR (do it right) rules about diving that require the use of adequate sized units that are totally redundant, able to operate independently of the diver's main system. Recreational diving in some areas is unpredictable. Some foreign dive shop owners I've encountered are dangerous people. Use the many sites available on the internet to get information. No competent divemaster will EVER discourage the use of a pony bottle. Spare Air units, however, are considered far too small, and therefore dangerous. they are ok for fast escapes from smoke filled houses, overturned boats, etc., but not from a dive, especially a dive deeper than 30 feet.

 

[ocello]

Well said Ackee, I could not have said it better.

 

[TTU_Reefer]

Spare Air emergency air supply units have a bad reputation among the serious scuba crowd for one primary reason: they do not hold nearly enough air to allow a diver to safely reach the surface in the event of sudden equipment failure, or running out of air for whatever reason. The number of breaths available from a typical 2 c.f. Spare Air unit is only good for 3 or 4 breaths at 100 feet, probably resulting in a possibly deadly rush to the surface. No serious diver has any complaint about pony bottles of adequate size, a minimum of 15 c.f. for dives at moderate depths. In fact, redundant system pony bottles are required equipment in some types of diving. There are many, many DIR (do it right) rules about diving that require the use of adequate sized units that are totally redundant, able to operate independently of the diver's main system. Recreational diving in some areas is unpredictable. Some foreign dive shop owners I've encountered are dangerous people. Use the many sites available on the internet to get information. No competent divemaster will EVER discourage the use of a pony bottle. Spare Air units, however, are considered far too small, and therefore dangerous. they are ok for fast escapes from smoke filled houses, overturned boats, etc., but not from a dive, especially a dive deeper than 30 feet.

Thanks! I didnt know how tiny they were. Think I can get a decient pony rig for around $300? I like the idea of having one, maybe not always using it unless im going 100+ where im sucking air.

Thanks again for the answer, very helpful!

 

[dogfrog]

do the math and figure out the time a tank would last you... Try it out on dry land first then take some time off for what your breathing rate would be in panic mode...Might not be as long as you think.. Back in the days when I was an Instructor I dove with 2 2nd stages. I made sure my budy also had one incase I need it.. Part of my schooling was testing out to old buddy breathing(sharing air) after treading water for 20 min... We lasted about 1 min until we gave up the idea and grabed our spare 2nd stage.

 

[Luiz Rocha]

Thanks! I didnt know how tiny they were. Think I can get a decient pony rig for around $300? I like the idea of having one, maybe not always using it unless im going 100+ where im sucking air.

Thanks again for the answer, very helpful!

A normal pony rig is not as trivial as you may think. It uses a regulator like the one in your main rig and a pressure gauge, a lot to carry around in recreational dives. Actually, dangerous to carry around in recreational dives if you are not an experienced diver. I would only recommend pony rigs for dives that fall outside the "recreational" category.

And I cannot stress this enough, you do not run out of air. Never. Ever. If you lose sight of your buddy the first thing you do is go to the surface. Pony bottles, spare airs, redundant air sources, are never, ever, used as a secondary source in case you run out of air. The only reason to care a spare air source is in case you have a catastrophic fail in your regulator and cannot breathe from it anymore.

 

[diver07]

Hi there. I'm new to RC so forgive me for posting on a non-reef thread but I am an avid diver and wanted to share some thoughts on your situation. Just so you know where I'm coming from my certs are : Advanced Nitrox, Decompression procedures, rescue diver, Trimix diver. The vast majority of my dives are planned decompression dives in the 100-200' range.

1) As already mentioned a spare air is just too small.

2) You are essentially doing solo dives. Sure there are other divers around but they aren't really your buddy and/or they are crappy ones.

3) Due to #2 you have some choices: Get a good buddy - I know this can be tough to do; get the right gear; get the right training.

The gear: Get a large capacity cylinder and an h-valve for it and another reg to go on it or get a "pony" bottle and a reg to go on it. For the pony I would recommend at least a 30cuft cylinder. Furthermore I suggest slinging it like a deco bottle not mounting it on your back as this gives you far more control of it. Note: the pony is for emergency back-up only! You should never never never plan on using it! Dive like it isn't there!

The training: Your OW training trained you to have your buddy as a backup. A lousy/non existant buddy screws this up. I would recommend a solo diver class from a GOOD INSTRUCTOR.

Of course you can't really take a pony on plane so when traveling you need the right training. This involves learning how to give the finger to some POS DM who refuses to allow you to terminate a dive when you deam it necessary. Remember: "Any diver can call any dive at any time for any reason!"

Btw, cudos for wanting to begin your ascent at 1000PSI (I assume you're using a 3000PSI AL 80). We technical divers call this diving 3rds. 1/3 out, 1/3 back and 1/3 for OH CRAP!

I hope nothing here came off as "preachy". It's hard to convey tone on a net forum. Best of luck and keep diving!

Aaron

 

[TTU_Reefer]

Hi there. I'm new to RC so forgive me for posting on a non-reef thread but I am an avid diver and wanted to share some thoughts on your situation. Just so you know where I'm coming from my certs are : Advanced Nitrox, Decompression procedures, rescue diver, Trimix diver. The vast majority of my dives are planned decompression dives in the 100-200' range.

1) As already mentioned a spare air is just too small.

2) You are essentially doing solo dives. Sure there are other divers around but they aren't really your buddy and/or they are crappy ones.

3) Due to #2 you have some choices: Get a good buddy - I know this can be tough to do; get the right gear; get the right training.

The gear: Get a large capacity cylinder and an h-valve for it and another reg to go on it or get a "pony" bottle and a reg to go on it. For the pony I would recommend at least a 30cuft cylinder. Furthermore I suggest slinging it like a deco bottle not mounting it on your back as this gives you far more control of it. Note: the pony is for emergency back-up only! You should never never never plan on using it! Dive like it isn't there!

The training: Your OW training trained you to have your buddy as a backup. A lousy/non existant buddy screws this up. I would recommend a solo diver class from a GOOD INSTRUCTOR.

Of course you can't really take a pony on plane so when traveling you need the right training. This involves learning how to give the finger to some POS DM who refuses to allow you to terminate a dive when you deam it necessary. Remember: "Any diver can call any dive at any time for any reason!"

Btw, cudos for wanting to begin your ascent at 1000PSI (I assume you're using a 3000PSI AL 80). We technical divers call this diving 3rds. 1/3 out, 1/3 back and 1/3 for OH CRAP!

I hope nothing here came off as "preachy". It's hard to convey tone on a net forum. Best of luck and keep diving!

Aaron

thanks alot, I appreciate the advice. I think I will lookinto more training. I did my AOW in hope that it would help me face more problem diving situations because the few times I have ran into problems (really mostly my fault) I didnt feel 100% that I handled them as calm and effictivly as I could have. I know I know how to handle a situation like say a free flow, but I always think, I can handle a free flow at 25ft but what about at 100'? How much different would I react? I wanted the AOW class to put me in these situations with a dive master there for safety. It did not, I took alot of valuable info from it but nothing "emergency" wise.

And could I not take the pony on the plane if the reg is removed? Or is this not practical. If I had a reliable dive buddy who I knew as a friend or family I would feel so much better about my dives, wouldnt even think about getting a pony tank.

 

[TTU_Reefer]

A normal pony rig is not as trivial as you may think. It uses a regulator like the one in your main rig and a pressure gauge, a lot to carry around in recreational dives. Actually, dangerous to carry around in recreational dives if you are not an experienced diver. I would only recommend pony rigs for dives that fall outside the "recreational" category.

And I cannot stress this enough, you do not run out of air. Never. Ever. If you lose sight of your buddy the first thing you do is go to the surface. Pony bottles, spare airs, redundant air sources, are never, ever, used as a secondary source in case you run out of air. The only reason to care a spare air source is in case you have a catastrophic fail in your regulator and cannot breathe from it anymore.

right I understand this. I like the idea of having a complete set of back up, since I do not dive with a 100% trust worthy buddy. Example would be once I got a buddy who it was her very first open water dive(post OW) and vis was crappy, and stong currents. dive turned out fine, but I was worried the whole time.

 

[dogfrog]

Btw, cudos for wanting to begin your ascent at 1000PSI (I assume you're using a 3000PSI AL 80). We technical divers call this diving 3rds. 1/3 out, 1/3 back and 1/3 for OH CRAP!

Aaron

Love that idea. Never used those words but the same idea.

I know this mite sound a little cold but any safety equipment you get should be for your benefit first. Your diving buddies second. If you ever had to use a pony then you screwed up really bad on your dive planning. I myself dove with a steal 90s and most of my other diving friend dove with smaller steal or aluminum tanks. So I guess you could say that extra CF of air was my pony tank.

 

[SeaJayInSC]

TTU Reefer: It's really refreshing to see a new diver with such a huge concern for safety. That's an uncommon characteristic (most of them are blinded by the "fun factor" and completely skip the safety part), and you deserve a round of applause for thinking so much about your gas supply and how it affects your safety while diving.

As a commercial diver, our rule-of-thumb is, "Everything's fine as long as you've got gas." (Note that we don't generally use the word "air" because often we're breathing something besides air.) So... It's completely logical to believe that it's always a good idea to just bring more... A Spare Air, therefore, is a great step in the right direction in terms of safety, right?

The problem with them is what's already been mentioned so well - their size doesn't allow for much help in the real world. You might get a couple of breaths, and that's pretty much it. Another problem that I haven't yet seen mentioned is that they typically aren't used very often, and rarely get VIP'd or otherwise "checked." So... It's not uncommon for someone to switch to a Spare Air only to find that it's already empty... And has been for the past year and a half, and may even have water in it. Additionally, the diver's been carrying it around for the past year and a half - like he already doesn't have enough stuff to carry!

The real danger in that is that the backup, safety device that is the Spare Air has, the entire time, been completely, totally unreliable... So if the diver's been pushing his limits knowing that he's got a little extra gas in his Spare Air, he's been in an even more dangerous situation than if he'd been diving without the Spare Air... 'Cause if he'd been diving without it, he may have made different choices, knowing that he didn't have the extra gas.

Simply put, there are better solutions out there to achieve the same safety margin of having a little extra gas with you. Pony bottles are an improvement over a Spare Air, because they generally have real regulators attached and are real tanks that are regularly maintained and filled.

The practical application of ponies is that their addition to a scuba rig can be unweildy and can cause a lot of drag unless they're worn like a double-tank rig... So if you're going to do that, you might as well go ahead and dive doubles - which means that you not only have another tank, but it's full-sized and plumbed with a manifold. This allows you to switch whatever tank to whatever regulator you want. If you have a failed second stage, it's not a problem to shut it off and reroute that gas through another second stage. Similarly, if you have a failed first stage, it's not a problem to shut it off and reroute that gas through another first stage.

With a pony tank, if one of your stages (either the one on your primary tank or the one on your pony) fails, then you no longer have that gas available to you at all... That is, you've got it, but you can't use it... Which could a be a real problem if you've planned to use it and need it for your dive.

There are other advantages to doubling, too... Like, if you're returning to the boat with 500 psi in your single tank (about 13 cuft of gas), then on your second dive you're leaving that on the boat and taking with you a full tank. If you're doing the same dive on doubles, then you're returning to the boat with 90.7 cuft of gas on the first dive, and diving with that (rather than 77.7 cuft - the true size of an aluminum 80) on your second dive. In other words... You get more gas than just twice the amount, as would be expected. You also don't have to switch tanks during your surface interval like you otherwise normally would.

...And doubles are no less streamlined than most "pony" rigs, which aren't manifolded, still require you to switch tanks between dives, and offer no safety benefits in the case of a failed first or second stage regulator.

Okay, so if you're thinking that doubles may be overkill for your situation, then here's some simpler ways of acheiving additional safety margin without actually doubling up:

1. Know your gas consumption. There are classes that teach SAC rate and will help you to improve considerably in terms of safety. I wrote an article once about SAC rate... See http://www.direxplorers.com/new-dir-articles/1376-rock-bottom.html Stay within the limits that you plan, and you'll never have a problem. This is the simplest, most straightforward way I know to address the issue that you're feeling relative to not having enough gas... And is applicable whether you're diving with a single AL80 or 25 tanks on a closed-circuit rebreather.

2. Dive the Rule of Thirds: As previously mentioned, turn your dive when you've used 1/3 or your gas supply. Theoretically, then, you'll use 1/3rd for the dive one way, 1/3rd of your gas coming out, and you'll have 1/3rd for when the fit hits the shan. Diving the Rule of Thirds is a requirement in overhead diving... But the astute diver will dive the Rule of Thirds in all dive situations, consistently.

3. Dive with a buddy that you can trust with your life: Based on what you've said above, I believe this to be the heart of the issue that you're having... You haven't found a safe, reliable dive buddy. Note that no Spare Air, pony bottle or doubles set can replace a good buddy. A pony will never understand what to do when you narc, ox tox, pass out, have a heart attack, or get entangled... And a backup gas supply is no fun to share the dive with.

Kudos for considering "a backup gas supply." That's a healthy thought process that will keep you alive underwater. Consider, though, other simpler, more straightforward, and in many cases cheaper ways of addressing the issue.

Hope that helps.

 

[diver07]

And could I not take the pony on the plane if the reg is removed? Or is this not practical. If I had a reliable dive buddy who I knew as a friend or family I would feel so much better about my dives, wouldnt even think about getting a pony tank.

To get a compressed gas cylinder on a commercial aircraft you need to remove the valve (not that that is that difficult really) not just the reg. That and simply size/weight issues and then getting it filled at your dive destination can be a problem. You could do it if you really wanted to it's just logistically complicated.

Aaron

 

[SeaJayInSC]

I'll sell you a pressure gauge that I know for a fact reads about 250 psi too high...

That doesn't really address the problem, though - only the symptom. Kinda like setting your clocks 15 minutes ahead because you're always late.

...That's not a real fix for the real problem.

 

[diver07]

Good points SeaJay. The only thing I disagree with is the "ponies can be unwieldy line". If you deco bottle rig it there is really nothing to it. I've had a 30 or 40 clipped to me on every dive this year, it's just part of my regular gear. In fact I'd real weird without it :fun5:

Also I didn't want to mention doubles but since you did... that is how I dive. Every dive I've done in the last 3 years has been on doubles except 1 and that was a LP120 w/ an h-valve because 3 guys with doubles would have killed my buddy's boat. I love doubles, unfortunately they're tough to come by in vacation dive locations. For non tech situations like the OP has I think a large cap cylinder (HP 120 would be great) w/ an h-valve is the way to go.

Not a DIR guy myself but I have no major problems with it either.

And your signature line is right on regarding artifacts :thumbsup:

Aaron

 

[SeaJayInSC]

Thanks, Aaron!

You know, you bring up a great point about "ponies..." Like you, I often clip an AL40 or AL80 to my left hip and left shoulder D-ring, horizontal and very streamlined. This can be done whether a diver is diving a single or double rig.

Classically, though, that's considered a "deco" or "stage" or "sling" bottle, and not a pony, which is generally worn across the butt or strapped to the side of a single tank on the diver's back. A sling bottle is generally the preferred method of carrying different mixes other than what's on your back, and can be dropped and reattached at will during the dive for a variety of reasons.

...So yeah, that's a great way to carry another bottle, and it can be done easily and very streamlined. I assumed that when people were talking about a "pony," they weren't talking about a stage bottle... I agree with you that a properly slung stage bottle is an excellent method of carrying additional gas.

...That said, a sling can't be used in the dive plan because it's not manifolded into the rest of your gear, and a failed first or second stage on your sling bottle would mean that it was completely unusable. It really can only be used to accelerate the dive plan... Like slinging 50% O2 (MOD70) or 100% O2 (MOD 20).

 

[diver07]

Yeah, the use of the word "pony" can be problematic. If you're ever feeling suicidal register to post on "TheDecoStop" and then just mention "pony" and prepare to be flammed like you've never seen :uzi:

I don't like back/tank mounted ponies as you really have little control over them. When I was doing "into to tech" slung/deco rigged ponies were required.

You're right - can't use them for gas planning -it's pure emergency only when all else has failed. I'd prefer doubles or an h-valve but I think for the OP's current situation it's a good choice.

And yeah, it's never "air" in my 30 or 40 it's 50% or 100% O2 or occasionally one of each on the deep dives - to the non-tech people reading this - DO NOT EVER DO THIS WITHOUT THE PROPER TRAINING!!!! It can KILL you faster than just about anything else!

Now, off to the pub to watch football, go Vikings!!!
Aaron

 

[SeaJayInSC]

Heh - TheDecoStop... Been there for years. What you say is totally true... Most of the time, it's better to sit and read than actually say anything. ScubaBoard's not much better, but at least most of those guys there are greenies and/or recreational-only type divers and don't get wadded up too quickly. TheDecoStop's a bit different.

I totally agree with you about back-mounted ponies (and for the same reason), although I know a lot of people who dive with them, and have successfully, for years. To me, if you're going to dive in a situation where you feel like you need more gas (or a direct ascent is impossible due to decompression obligation or hard overhead), then it's time to double up.

I dive exclusively AL80's unless I'm diving with a drysuit. They're cheap, easy to find, and neutrally bouyant when they're half full. IMHO, they make for great bouyancy and trim until I don a drysuit, in which case I like the heavier LP steels like LP95's and LP104's.

The only reason I ever use a sling bottle with a single is if I'm doing multiple dives and want to use it to "decompress" on, even if I'm not obligated to do so. I find I feel a lot better at the end of the day than those who don't switch to a higher O2% gas during ascent. I have also done it just to keep myself from getting out of practice with a sling bottle...

 

[AMW]

I have been diving for years and have not heard that a pony tank is considered taboo...BUT...touching the coral and other animal life is MOST definitely taboo.
STORY: I was diving in Wakatobi - Sulawesi, Indonesia - and this diver (from a country West of Alaska and East of eastern Europe and that starts with an 'R') literally ripped a piece of coral off of the reef and brought it over to the dive-master for identification!!!! I couldn't believe it! Rather than him just signaling the dive master to come over and see what he was looking at he chose to destroy the reef...good grief! Only human beings can be this narcissistic!!!

 

[corigan]

Having known SeaJay for along time from DecoStop and Scubaboard I agree with him. I am an intro to cave diver, never got back down to florida to finish my training (work sucks!). I would never carry a pony bottle or a spare air. As pointed out above, spare airs are the worst, and would be better suited for a whitewater kayaker than a scuba diver. I wear doubles with an iso manifold and use this as redundant supply. I would use an H valve if I didn't have doubles, but you can still have catastrophic failure if a Tank Neck O-ring blows out on a H-valve. I mainly dive a DIR/hog style rig, but don't necessarily follow all the DIR standards. If you need a spare bottle carry a sling. Streamlining it like SeaJay stated on the shoulder and hip d-ring so it hangs under the arm is nice. One thing I have noticed is people that use pony bottles attached to their tanks are almost always out of trim (utilizing more gas/effort to get through the water) and it just adds an entanglement hazzard to your rig. I also have seen people plan their dive with the pony bottle as part of the plan. This is a big no-no. The only time I sling a bottle is when I'm bringing 50 or 100% to deco on.

On another note the dive story about the buddy not wanting to surface when you wanted to, that's when I flip him the middle finger, ditch him, and start ascending. If the guy doesn't respect the dive plan, you as a buddy, or calling the dive, then he is useless to begin with.

As for destroying reefs, I have taken out a slate and a dive knife (steak knife with the tip cut off for entanglement reasons) and told people if they didn't want me to sneak up on them and stick them underwater to stay off the reef. Getting stuck with a square ended knife can't feel good.