Dose into your Sump or Display?

[chowberg]

Hey guys - I'm in the middle of setting up my dosing unit and read this thread.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2065591

Where do you guys dose into? I was planning on dosing right before my return pump.

 

[EnderTurtle]

Sump but dont let it get sucked into skimmer.

 

[coral2002]

Is there any problem dose in the display tank?

 

[woodnaquanut]

Sump for me. I like the high flow just before the return.

I'm sure it would be OK in the display but I get to hide it all in the sump area.

 

[chowberg]

Sump but dont let it get sucked into skimmer.

That was my concern. In the posted thread somebody said they dose'd right where the tank drained. My full siphon drain drops right into my Skimmer and didn't want to dose there. I'm glad you reconfirmed that shouldn't be done.

Sump for me. I like the high flow just before the return.

I'm sure it would be OK in the display but I get to hide it all in the sump area.

I'll most likely dose right before my return.

Thanks for your replies.

 

[Crispy001]

Sump but dont let it get sucked into skimmer.

What would be the basis for this statement?

 

[wpeterson]

I have a Trigger Systems Tideline 30 sump and setup a Jebao doser 3-4 months ago. The doser is mounter over the return chamber in the sump and I initially was dosing into the return chamber.

Unfortunately, the local Alk and Calc spikes caused precipitation on my return pump and it seized up after a month of dosing. A vinegar bath sorted that out, but clearly it was a bad dosing location.

I routed dosing lines into the drain chamber of the sump in the other end - where high flow from the display drains, ATO inlets, and other streams mixed together. I haven't had any trouble since then despite ramping up the amounts of dosing.

 

[Happyschneider]

I have a Trigger Systems Tideline 30 sump and setup a Jebao doser 3-4 months ago. The doser is mounter over the return chamber in the sump and I initially was dosing into the return chamber.

Unfortunately, the local Alk and Calc spikes caused precipitation on my return pump and it seized up after a month of dosing. A vinegar bath sorted that out, but clearly it was a bad dosing location.

I routed dosing lines into the drain chamber of the sump in the other end - where high flow from the display drains, ATO inlets, and other streams mixed together. I haven't had any trouble since then despite ramping up the amounts of dosing.

I'm just planning my setup and even though I do not have a sump, I plan to dose into the area where one of the pumps are getting their water from.

Would you be able to prevent most precipitation if you would dose Alkalinity independent from calcium (pH should be at normal level by the time calcium levels rise) and also very slowly. That would help preventing high concentrations of OH- ions that could precipitate together with either calcium or magnesium. What do you guys think? And sorry for highjacking the thread but I hope that it will help the OP as well.

 

[chowberg]

What would be the basis for this statement?

This thread is was what I based my concerns on. The specs of that persons sump are almost identical to mine.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2117387

I have a Trigger Systems Tideline 30 sump and setup a Jebao doser 3-4 months ago. The doser is mounter over the return chamber in the sump and I initially was dosing into the return chamber.

Unfortunately, the local Alk and Calc spikes caused precipitation on my return pump and it seized up after a month of dosing. A vinegar bath sorted that out, but clearly it was a bad dosing location.

I routed dosing lines into the drain chamber of the sump in the other end - where high flow from the display drains, ATO inlets, and other streams mixed together. I haven't had any trouble since then despite ramping up the amounts of dosing.

Do you know if it makes any difference if I'm running an external pump? Thanks for your response.

 

[wpeterson]

If you're dosing two-part, it's a good idea to give time between dosing Alk and Calc to allow the dose to dilute fully to prevent localized higher concentrations, but 10-15 minutes separation should be OK, depending on how much turnover you have in your tank to mix things up. I dose Alk every hour on the hour and Calc every 3 hours on the half hour to allow time for dilution.

Pump internals are hot and have close fitting surfaces that are high precipitation zones, so it's important to dose away from your pumps so that the dose has time to dilute. Locally higher Alk or Calc concentrations combined with a pump build up calcium deposits and can seize up pumps over time. I don't think it makes a difference for internal vs. external pumps, but some pumps may have different geometry that's more tolerant of buildup than others.

Here's a sump diagram:

My sump has a drain/expansion chamber that collects water from the overflows. I ran dosing lines into the third inlet labeled ATO on that diagram. This chamber fills up and overflows into a large filter sock. The filter sock chamber fills up and drains into my skimmer chamber, which flows through to my refugium, that overflows into my return chamber. I dose right where the drain water enters so it has time to mix well and dilute before getting to the skimmer and return pump. If I had to pick one to fail, I'd rather the skimmer seized than the return.

The best place to dose will depend on your amount of flow and sump design. For me dosing into my return chamber was convenient, but caused my cheap Jebao pump to seize. Vinegar bath fixed it, but it's a scary thing to have fail.

 

[wpeterson]

I'm just planning my setup and even though I do not have a sump, I plan to dose into the area where one of the pumps are getting their water from.

Would you be able to prevent most precipitation if you would dose Alkalinity independent from calcium (pH should be at normal level by the time calcium levels rise) and also very slowly. That would help preventing high concentrations of OH- ions that could precipitate together with either calcium or magnesium. What do you guys think? And sorry for highjacking the thread but I hope that it will help the OP as well.

Yeah, ideally you would do a tiny continuous drip to dose tiny amounts. However, your doser likely has a floor on what amount can be dosed reliably without too much error. I have a cheap Jebao doser, so that threshold is about 5ml for me.

I would advise finding out how much you want to dose per day, divide that by your minimum dose to get a rough schedule to start with. My doser has a max of 24 doses/day, so now that I dose Alk every hour I just slightly increase the amount over time vs. adding new periods. Your doser may vary.

I only dose Calc 6 times a day, about 7ml/dose. If this ramped up to 10ml/dose, I would switch to 12x 5ml per day.

 

[Happyschneider]

excellent advice, Thanks!

 

[vhuang168]

Yeah, ideally you would do a tiny continuous drip to dose tiny amounts. However, your doser likely has a floor on what amount can be dosed reliably without too much error. I have a cheap Jebao doser, so that threshold is about 5ml for me.

I would advise finding out how much you want to dose per day, divide that by your minimum dose to get a rough schedule to start with. My doser has a max of 24 doses/day, so now that I dose Alk every hour I just slightly increase the amount over time vs. adding new periods. Your doser may vary.

I only dose Calc 6 times a day, about 7ml/dose. If this ramped up to 10ml/dose, I would switch to 12x 5ml per day.

I'm using a Pacific Sun Kore 5th doser. There is a special program on the #1 pump to dose 144 times a day, which is every 10 mins. I dose about 1ml per dose for Alk. Ca is dosed every hr at the 35min mark.

My amount seems high but that is because I diluted the BRS 2 part by half.

The Kore doser is very accurate, down to 0.1 ml but since we can't get a drop small enough, 0.4ml is the smallest dose I can get.

 

[chowberg]

I attached a ghetto paint jpeg of my sump lay out. The bottom left drain is the full siphon from the herbie overflow and the top right is the overflow.

Initially I was going to dose into the top right drain area but since its not a full siphon it isn't very turbulent there.

I plan on dosing somewhere in the bubble trap, good or bad idea?

 

[Crispy001]

This thread is was what I based my concerns on. The specs of that persons sump are almost identical to mine.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2117387

The important thing is to dose slowly and to high flow/turbulence areas. Dosing all at once can cause precipitation that can affect pumps and corals. Doing it near a skimmer is great, it helps mix things up.

 

[sfsuphysics]

Save yourself some grief, do the 1/2 strength Randy 2 part formula, any precipitation is almost non existent then, granted you need to dose twice as much and also re-make your solution twice as often, but I've always had issues with alkalinity precipitation, a single drop will cloud the instant it hits the water, so went with the half strength version and that went away.

 

[chowberg]

The important thing is to dose slowly and to high flow/turbulence areas. Dosing all at once can cause precipitation that can affect pumps and corals. Doing it near a skimmer is great, it helps mix things up.

Do you know if dosing next a skimmer pose the same danger as dosing before a return pump? The more I read, the more confused I get, LOL.

Does anybody see an issue dosing into my drain?

Save yourself some grief, do the 1/2 strength Randy 2 part formula, any precipitation is almost non existent then, granted you need to dose twice as much and also re-make your solution twice as often, but I've always had issues with alkalinity precipitation, a single drop will cloud the instant it hits the water, so went with the half strength version and that went away.

I'm not actually sure what the Randy formula is. This is the result I got from from Google seach, is this what you're referring to?

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/

 

[nanomarine]

I've been dosing in the return pump section for a few years without problems similar to wpeterson's post 10 & 11.

Split my daily dose into 4 intervals separated by an hour rest in between. Since the PH is at the lowest after lights out, my ALK is dosed at 1, 3, 5, 7 am and Ca is dosed at 11am, 1, 3, 5pm. So there's little chance of mixing of the 2 chemicals in concentration.

 

[sfsuphysics]

I'm not actually sure what the Randy formula is. This is the result I got from from Google seach, is this what you're referring to?

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/

That would be the one, Randy Holmes-Farley (think he still answers questions in the chemistry section here). Follow recipe #2 which is the half strength recipe if you're worried about any sort of precipitation. Where you dose shouldn't matter unless the water is super stagnant, in which case there are other issues you need to be worrying about IMO.