Flame angel

[meat1974]

I was just wondering if my flame angel is acting right. It seems to hide alot and I try to feed it twice a day. I never seem to see it eat. It looks healthy and my tank parameters are good. Its not nipping at my corols, in fact it hides under my frogspawn alot. At this point I would be greatful to see it nip at a coral, at least then I would know it was eating. Its been in the tank for two weeks now. Maybe I'm just paranoid. Any help would be great. Thanks.

 

[sandwi54]

have you ever seen it eat at all? what food were you feeding? try other types of food if you can. brine shrimps and blood worms usually perk up fish's appetite.

 

[meat1974]

I may have seen it eat once maybe. It was so quick, if it did eat I real couldn't tell. I've been feeding it brine shrimp with and without spirulina, mysis, instant ocean omnivore and seaweed blends, and seaweed on a vegi clip. I've tryed all with and without soaking it in garlic. Also flake and pellet. I don't understand it.

 

[meat1974]

Anyone else with any ideas?

 

[IamLoki]

Is it new? It could be just getting used to the tank.

It could be a disease. Brooklynella causes fish not to eat and they become lethargic and hide.

It could be a stray voltage. Stray voltage from equipment may cause the fish to go into sensory overload and makes them skittish which could explain why hides a lot. I don't think I've ever seen a Flame Angel that hid unless it was new to the tank and only for a day or two.

I hope you figure it out. Good luck.

 

[mnowicki]

flames are known to be very shy so that isn't abnormal behaviour. The one I have also hides whenever it sees me, but if I stand at a distance and observe it, it'll venture out of its hiding spots once in a while. When I feed I put the food in the tank and step back in order for it to feel comfortable and come out to eat. Generally speaking they are also known to be difficult fish to acclimate at first and get to eat properly at times. Since it is in your tank already I assume it has plenty of live rock and some algae to pick on (if you don't I would suggest having it, especially if you don't see him eating). If it doesn't look pretty thin by now, its either eating when you aren't around or picking at the algae in the tank.

The one thing that I tried with my flame and it seems to work when all else fails is live brine. turn the filtration off for a bit and just let them wander around your tank, sometimes it works when all other frozen food fails for most fish. also put a small rock with a tiny bit of the nori by its hiding spot, don't expect it to come out into the opening to eat at first. Also watch your tank from a distance, maybe its getting picked on by another fish in the tank when it comes out.

Hope it comes out soon and you could enjoy this gorgeous fish. Good luck.

 

[sandwi54]

dwarf angels are typically more shy in nature than some other fish, mainly because they are preys to larger carnivore fish. That is the reason for their skittish behaviors.

How long have you had the fish and was it eating at the LFS? If it's new I don't expect it to perk up in a couple of days, especially if it has just gotten to the dealer's tank when you bought it. It may still trying to cope with the stress of being caught in the ocean, shipped halfway around the world, being moved to a bunch of new places, and eventually ending up in your tank. Some fish have higher tolerance of this than others, but if the fish is healthy it should perk up within a week. just make sure your water quality is excellent (ammonia/nitrite = 0, nitrate < 20ppm).

If it doesn't look like it has disease, I would just let it be and settle down for another couple of days.

 

[sandwi54]

Another thought, does it look thin? Since you have a reef tank, you probably have a healthy growth of algae and the angel may just feel so comfortable that it just nibbles at the algae in the tank all day long (that's what they do in the wild). In that case, it may be hard to get it to eat prepared food. Do you see it nibble at the live rocks?

 

[meat1974]

I've had it for two weeks now and it was at the fish store for a few weeks before I got it. It doesn't look thin at all. It looks healthy. I talked to a fellow reef buddy at work that has had flame angels and he said if its still alive and looks good after two weeks, then I shouldn't worry about it. Since I've had it for two weeks now he said its probably good. I'm probably just being paranoid. I'll keep you guys posted. As always thanks guys for your advice.

 

[Dr Colliebreath]

As mnowicki said, I would feed plenty of live brine and then stand back from the tank to try and get it eating. Once it starts eating the live brine, begin mixing in frozen mysis shrimp.

 

[meat1974]

It died today right in front of me eyes. Right when I was getting ready to feed the tank. I have the worst luck with fish. I don't even know how much money I've spent on fish. It makes me sick to think about it. I have a tank with sps, lps, and mushrooms. I can grow corals like crazy, but when it comes to fish I can do no good. I have one clown and a yellow tang left after five years of running the tank. I feel like giving up. I love the look of the corals and the success I've had with them, but I hate the fact that I can't keep any other fish. I get my fish from LFS and theres no guarantee on anything. This angel came from a very nice store in Schaumburg IL. They even shot air into the bag I took it home in. Should I be buying off the internet or what? I've about had it.

 

[Dr Colliebreath]

Sorry to hear the flame died.

It sounds like you are putting fish from the lfs directly into your display tank. You should set up a quarantine tank and develop procedures to quarantine fish. In addition to looking for and treating disease, the QT is used to get the fish eating well and prepared to go into your DT without the complication of other fish.

I would make sure any fish you get from the lfs are eating pretty well (that is, not just pecking here and there at food) or, better yet, aggressively. You also might try buying your next fish from the Divers Den division of Live Aquaria. They get fish eating and healthy before selling the fish.

More information is required tell whether you may have a disease in your DT that needs to be eradicated, such as tank/water parameters (presumably fine if your corals are doing well) and problems with other fish you have tried (what fish, what problems, what circumstances surrounding their death, etc.).

 

[meat1974]

If I had the space for a QT I would have one. Lets say I do have the room for a QT and the fish die. The LFS doesn't do anything about it anyway. It's like throwing money out the window. All my parameters are good. 0 across the board. Powder blue tang one year dead. Clown fish bought as pair, one died in a year. I think the other one killed it. Three Blue chromis added at the same time all died within a year. Six line wrasse lasted a month. Lawn mower blenny lasted three weeks. Royal gramma lasted two weeks in my son's nano tank. I would like to set up a QT but its not possible. I've thought of buying from live aquaria, but I'm not sure if I would be just throwing money away again. I know they have a 14 day guarantee, but after the time is up I would be out of luck again. Plus shipping costs.

 

[Arkayology]

Do you buy all your fish from the same LFS? If so, sounds like you might want to buy somewhere else.

 

[sandwi54]

If I had the space for a QT I would have one. Lets say I do have the room for a QT and the fish die. The LFS doesn't do anything about it anyway. It's like throwing money out the window. All my parameters are good. 0 across the board. Powder blue tang one year dead. Clown fish bought as pair, one died in a year. I think the other one killed it. Three Blue chromis added at the same time all died within a year. Six line wrasse lasted a month. Lawn mower blenny lasted three weeks. Royal gramma lasted two weeks in my son's nano tank. I would like to set up a QT but its not possible. I've thought of buying from live aquaria, but I'm not sure if I would be just throwing money away again. I know they have a 14 day guarantee, but after the time is up I would be out of luck again. Plus shipping costs.

i'm not too surprised by the repetitive loss of fish you're experiencing when you did not quarantine and prophylactically treat for disease. in my opinion, and a lot of the experts' including those on RC, not having a QT is just asking for trouble. even though your case is a bit extreme, it's not out of the line.

you may have disease in your tank from all the fish that were not quarantined and treated prophylactically. those fish may last a while from good nutrition and water quality, but one day would fall if any stress is placed upon them. it's not whether or not it would happen but rather when.

i can also suspect cyanide poisoning, but give that all 7 fish died, the possibility of cyanide poisoning on every fish is low. if you want to be 100% successful (and i do mean 100%, not 90% or 80% or whatever), a properly set up QT is absolutely necessary. you don't have bad luck with fish; you just need to follow rigorous QT processes.

i would restart the whole process, set up a QT, pull all your fish out of DT and let it go fallow for 10 weeks. treat the fish with prazipro and cupramine. Put the fish back into DT after 10 weeks. Then buy new fish and QT and treat them.

 

[Dr Colliebreath]

If I had the space for a QT I would have one. Lets say I do have the room for a QT and the fish die. The LFS doesn't do anything about it anyway. It's like throwing money out the window. All my parameters are good. 0 across the board. Powder blue tang one year dead. Clown fish bought as pair, one died in a year. I think the other one killed it. Three Blue chromis added at the same time all died within a year. Six line wrasse lasted a month. Lawn mower blenny lasted three weeks. Royal gramma lasted two weeks in my son's nano tank. I would like to set up a QT but its not possible. I've thought of buying from live aquaria, but I'm not sure if I would be just throwing money away again. I know they have a 14 day guarantee, but after the time is up I would be out of luck again. Plus shipping costs.

I keep my QT in my master bedroom. It can be just a 10 or 20 gallon tank with a heater and hang-on filter.

How big is your DT, by the way?

As sandwi54 indicates, the fish that died within a month or so perhaps were the result of collection and handling practices at the source. They may have been caught with cyanide or left in buckets in the sun or poisoned with by ammonia if their water wasn't changed. These are difficult to avoid completely but you increase your odds by buying from a a good vendor such as Live Aquaria, Diver's Den, or a lfs that gets its fish from Quality Marine. These vendors attempt to avoid collectors with a poor track record.

The clownfish and chromis deaths could very well have been simply due to aggression. You typically are better with just one. People tend to advise that you will end up with one chromis no matter how many you start with, unless the tank is fairly large.

Looking at your list, only the powder blue death would seem to be the only one excepted from either bad collection practices or aggression. Your clown or the yellow tang may have hassled it or perhaps it wasn't getting enough food or particular nutrition (greens).

Let us know what type of clown you have and whether you have mobile inverts such as shrimp, crabs and snails.

I suggest you get a small quarantine tank, buy a hearty fish from Diver's Den, and manage water quality carefully with frequent water changes. Make sure the fish is eating well and looks fine for a couple of weeks before transferring it to your DT. Assuming that works well, try some from Live Aquaria. It will be critical to bring in compatible fish, so ask here for recommendations.

Finally, this hobby can be discouraging but hang in there, it is worth it. You will get it under control and end up with something you will enjoy.

 

[meat1974]

I get my fish from a couple of lfs. The clowns and powder blue were in my 29 gallon in the begining. Four months later I put them in the bigger tank. I bought the yellow tang. One clown beat up and killed the other. Out of nowhere after a year the powder blue died. I had the powder blue ordered, also it never even went in the lfs tanks. The yellow tang came from a different lfs and its still doing good after 3yrs. I got the flame angel at the IL store for the heck of it. The guy at the store dates all the fish when they come in, treats with copper, and has UV on all fish tanks. I also bought a damsel to go in the nano tank with the clown in that tank and its doing great in that tank. The acropora I bought from that store for the big tank is doing great also. Maybe I could figure out how to get a QT set up. Does that mean I can just put them in the QT right after I buy them? Meaning no aclamation to the QT. Can I use my old bio-wheel filter for a filter on the QT with a heater and thats it? How long should I leave them in there and what do I treat with?

 

[Dr Colliebreath]

At this point you have a 72 DT with a yellow tang and an 8 nano with a clown and damsel, right?

The lfs that sold you the flame used copper. Some flames can be sensitive to copper and thus use a fairly low dose when treating with copper (I have a flame in my QT and am am running the Cupramine at 1/2 the standard dose), so perhaps the lfs used a high dose that harmed the flame.

Another possible issue on the quick deaths of fish is that the lfs may have their tanks at a low salinity (say 1.017-.018 SG) and yours is around 1.025 for your corals. That is a big jump for the fish to take even if you drip acclimate over an hour. It will be at best highly stressful and possibly cause injury.

You will need to acclimate fish to your QT. It is best to adjust the salinity of your QT to that of the source, say by keeping your QT at 1.017 SG, and then testing the water in the bag when you get a fish and adjusting your SG with the addition of a bit of salt if necessary. At that point, you acclimate your fish.

Your biowheel will be a fine filter. Get a new wheel and let it float in the DT sump for a couple days to pick up some bacteria for biological filtration. (Don't mix anything that has been in the QT back to the DT.)

If your 29 isn't available to use as a QT, Petco recently has their $1 per gallon sale (tank cost is $1 per gallon of tank size, or $20 for a 20 gal tank) so you could check to see if the sale is still going on. Just add a heater plus a hiding place (I have a 4" pvc elbow and a 3" pvc Tee from the plumbing department at Home Depot) and you are set. I also like to have a small powerhead in the tank for additional water movement.

I first make sure my fish are eating well in quarantine. That could take a day or two or it can take a week. If they aren't eating much and I suspect flukes, I will medicate with PraziPro even before they are eating well. Once they are eating, I medicate with PraziPro and Cupramine over at least 3 -4 weeks, then remove the meds by water changes and Cuprasorb. I typically have my fish in quarantine 4-6 weeks. It is a long time but worthwhile to avoid introducing diseases into your DT. Needless to say, fish may need medication sooner or other medication if they show signs of disease.

When doing water changes during quarantine, I use water from my DT so the fish are acclimated to it once quarantine is done.

When moving my fish from the QT to the DT, I dip them in a separate container of DT tank water before putting them in the DT to wash off anything from the QT (just to make sure).

Be careful handling your fish with a net so as not to injure them.

 

[meat1974]

I have an extra 10 gallon that I could clean up and use along with the bio-wheel filter and heater. How many fish could I treat at one time in a 10 gallon?

 

[Dr Colliebreath]

The 10 gallon should work fine. I would limit myself to having 1 or 2 fish at any one time because you will have to manage water quality carefully and it will be easier to manage if disease shows up as compared to having more fish in the QT. You want the quarantined fish to have a healthy, stress-free environment as you adapt them to captive life.