Help me decide if my clowns have Ich and if treatment is warranted

gaberosenfield

New member
Hi RC,

I finally got my new system up and running. The DT and QT have been running and cycled for several months now, but I just put the first fish in QT two weeks ago. They are a pair of ocellaris clowns bred by a friend of mine. He has tons of clowns in his breeding system and none of them have ich. However, about a week ago I put a green Pocillopora from an LFS in the QT with my clowns. The coral developed RTN and died 2 days after I put it in QT. Since then, I started seeing small whitish things on my clowns. They come and go and are not very noticeable. I certainly wouldn't describe them as grains of salt or sand stuck to the fish; more like tiny flecks of peeling skin. A given fleck may be there one day and gone the next. Here are the best pics I was able to get:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=303752&stc=1&d=1421131027
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=303753&stc=1&d=1421131027
Look at the small whitish specks above the fish's pectoral fin. Am I being paranoid? Could this be ich? Opinions? If it is ich, my clowns could only have gotten it from the coral or rock it came on from the LFS. The tank at the LFS that the coral and rock came from did have fish in it, but they appeared healthy and have been in that tank for over 6 months. The clowns are still active, don't seem to be gasping or breathing heavily, and have healthy appetites. The larger one even seems to defend the PVC elbow in which they sleep when I put my hand in the tank. I might also add that I obtained some very nice frags of more SPS and some zoas from a fellow reefer, and they seem to be doing well in the quarantine tank with my clowns. I'm not sure why the first coral from the LFS RTNed. Someone please tell me that I'm just being paranoid about my fish!!!

Just as a formality, here is proof that I read the stickies:
1. How old is this aquarium?
~12 weeks old
2. If less than six months old, what is ammonia level?
To be honest, I never measured this. This isn't my first tank, and I took my time with cycling. I did measure a rise in nitrates about 6 weeks ago. The nitrate levels eventually stabilized, which I took as a sign that the tank was fully cycled. I have reduced the nitrates to ~3 ppm via skimming and water changes. The QT gets a 10% water change daily with used water from the main system, so the parameters are the same.
3. What is SG of this aquarium? How measured?
1.025, measured with Sybon hand held refractometer.
4. When was the last fish added to this aquarium?
Both clowns were added to QT 16 days ago.
5. Was it quarantined? If so, how? And how long? Was it prophylactically treated? How?
No treatment. The rest is previously explained.
6. If you are using a copper based medication, which one? How often do you measure level? When?
N/A
7. If you are using hyposalinity, how did you calibrate your refractometer?
N/A
8. Please describe in detail, the appearance of the fish? If there is one or more pimples, are they lumpy? What color?
See above.
9. Please describe the behavior of the fish as best you can. Is it acting reclusive? Is it always up towards the top of the aquarium? Is it avoiding light? How active is the fish?
See above. I'll add that the two clowns mostly like to stay in the dimmer regions of the tank, but the did that from the moment I added them to the QT.
10. Is the fish eating? What?
They are eating a pellet food designed for marine fish. I can't recall the brand at the moment cause I got some from the guy who bred these and don't own the original container. The fish have been trained to eat this and so far, the only things I've been able to get them to eat are these pellets and bits of food from a couple types of dry filter feeder formulas (like reef chili).
 

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Looks like it could be a very mild case. Make sure to keep a close eye on them and feed them heavy and if they are in good condition otherwise they will pull through just fine. At this point if you pull them you will cause more stress and the ick will spread.
 
Looks like it could be a very mild case. Make sure to keep a close eye on them and feed them heavy and if they are in good condition otherwise they will pull through just fine. At this point if you pull them you will cause more stress and the ick will spread.

Madness, If its ich he should definitely Treat his fish with TTM or copper treatment especially if they are already in a QT. fish CAN fight off ich somewhat with low stress and good diet but at best all that does is fight off death and hide symptoms, the ich is still present and effecting them, Usually stress will cause another potentially fatal breakout such as introducing a new fish, Drop in water quality etc.

not to mention if he doesnt treat and introduces them into the DT that will become infected too, Requiring him to take the fish out, treat them, and run his DT fallow for 10 weeks.

again IF it is ich. It would be much better to treat it with one of the 3 methods recommended on the stickies in this forum. namely Tank transfer method, Copper, Or hyposalinity.
 
Don't medicate without taking the corals out of qt. if you want to qt corals you may want a separate coral qt.

i missed that lil tidbit. Yeah the corals will be an issue, Putting them in DT puts it at risk for infection of ich and possibly other coral nasties. And any ich treatment(This is again all IF this ich.) will wreck them.

O snap son this didnt even click in my head. Coulda screwed me over later down the road because up untill now didn't see why i couldn't QT inverts/Fish together. im a pleb.

But yes OP diagnoses first then lets talk treatment.
 
Bologna, if you get a sniffle do you head right to the drug store... NO

Let the fish fight it off, every time you treat you lower the O2 in the tank and stress the fish more. Also copper has been shown to lower the fishes immune system.

Feed heavy and keep an eye on them.

Source... My self and 14 years of running two LFS

i missed that lil tidbit. Yeah the corals will be an issue, Putting them in DT puts it at risk for infection of ich and possibly other coral nasties. And any ich treatment(This is again all IF this ich.) will wreck them.

O snap son this didnt even click in my head. Coulda screwed me over later down the road because up untill now didn't see why i couldn't QT inverts/Fish together. im a pleb.

But yes OP diagnoses first then lets talk treatment.
 
Bologna, if you get a sniffle do you head right to the drug store... NO

Let the fish fight it off, every time you treat you lower the O2 in the tank and stress the fish more. Also copper has been shown to lower the fishes immune system.

Feed heavy and keep an eye on them.

Source... My self and 14 years of running two LFS

I disagree, completely. A small outbreak of ich will become a large outbreak of ich based on the exponential aspect of the ich life cycle.

Source . . . Marine biology literature and 35 years of salt water experience.
 
Ok everyone, lets not argue about treatment options. I would most certainly treat if I come to the conclusion that it is Ich because I do not want my future fish introductions to get infected, especially since I plan on getting a tang later, which I understand tend to be ich magnets. If they are infected, I'll try the tank transfer method as that is easiest for me given my situation. I posted here because I want people who are more experienced than I to help me figure out if the fish even have Ich. I can't help but wonder if I'm just being paranoid...
I do work in a lab and have access to a microscope. Maybe I should try catching the fish, scraping a little bit of the stuff off and looking at it under a microscope... Anyone have links to microscopic images of Ich?
 
I don't think there is an argument, just one person differs in opinion. I know of no free reference and remember that cryptocaryon irritans is embedded so it would not be easily scraped. Best references are:

Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment by Dr. Edward J Noga.

Captive Seawater Fishes: Science and Technology by Dr. Stephen Spotte
 
As I indicated above, the pictures are not definitive. If it is ich, tank transfer is an easy treatment, if it is one of the more virulent parasites, the stickies have treatment protocols.
 
Ok everyone, with no treatment, the little whitish specks on my fish faded away. They completely disappeared on the 16th and haven't returned yet. I will keep the fish in quarantine another two weeks at least. If no dots reappear, I will assume it wasn't Ich and introduce them into the system. I hope that won't be a mistake. The dots never looked convincingly like Ich... I was just worried. Anyway, I'll let everyone know what happens.
Thanks again for all your help,
Gabe
 
From all of my readings on ich (and from fighting my current ich infection), you are just in the phase where the parasites are either sitting as encapsulated multipliers in your substrate, or they are hatching and coming back to find your fish again in greater numbers.

Take some free advice: Go ahead and treat it. I left my fish "fight it off" the first few rounds until they couldn't fight it off on the later outbreak. Additionally, since the parasite was still present and flourishing in my display tank, it was a veritable death trap for new additions in the aquarium as they arrive stressed and don't have the steam to fight at all. My 2 cents, anyway...
 
From all of my readings on ich (and from fighting my current ich infection), you are just in the phase where the parasites are either sitting as encapsulated multipliers in your substrate, or they are hatching and coming back to find your fish again in greater numbers.

Take some free advice: Go ahead and treat it. I left my fish "fight it off" the first few rounds until they couldn't fight it off on the later outbreak. Additionally, since the parasite was still present and flourishing in my display tank, it was a veritable death trap for new additions in the aquarium as they arrive stressed and don't have the steam to fight at all. My 2 cents, anyway...

Good advice. Ich visible symptoms come and go and depending on those for a diagnosis is not dependable.
 
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