Help with QT please

[JustinM]

Hi,

I added some Chaeto to my sump from a local reefer and a week later my fish started showing spots like Ich. I can't say it came from him but my fish were all in observation and everything went well so to the tank they went and this was well over a month ago.

I was going to trap them all and thow them in a 40 breeder and treat with Crypto Pro because of my angelfish and my mandarin. All fish are healthy, in terms of eating so i figured it would be safe to remove them into a treatment tank and let my DT go fallow for some time. My only problem is how will i keep up with biological filtration for 6 fish(2 small clowns, lamarks angelfish, spotted mandarin, black leopard wrasse, and a scopas tang)? I understand water changes but is there anything else so i don't go though a crazy amount of salt?

Any suggestions I would greatly appreciate it, and I learned my lesson that everything, even macro algae, must be held in observation for some time. I have been contemplating having a QT tank running all the time, I think this may help me to start that.

Thank you.

 

[Mrscribbled]

Pick up a songe filter and some instant ocean bio spira. I have had good luck with this.

 

[JustinM]

Thank you for the repsonse, I will definately add some kind of Live strain if I can. I was going to use a Bio wheel HOB filter or something that has a place for bacteria to grow and remove the carbon.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Thank you for the repsonse, I will definately add some kind of Live strain if I can. I was going to use a Bio wheel HOB filter or something that has a place for bacteria to grow and remove the carbon.

This works well; but only if you plan ahead. Getting enough friendly bacteria seeded on the bio-wheel takes several weeks. For future use, keep a bio-wheel (or other porous filter media) in an area of your DT system that has good flow.

I've never been a big fan of Miracle-Gro bacteria in a bottle; but there seem to be a lot of good hobbyists having luck with a couple of brands; like Bio-Spira mentioned by Mrscibbled above. My main gripe with these products has been with genetic tweaking that produces bacteria that can actually compete with, and destroy, the natural strains. It sounds like this may be history. In your case, I'd sure try Bio-Spira.

I imagine you expect this; but never assume anyone's tank is parasite free. (Except mine!) Parasite stages can travel with anything wet. I've pretty much changed my mind on the quinine drugs; without looking it up, I think Crypto-Pro is quinine sulfate. There are a couple downsides to QS: its hard to keep in suspension and impossible to test the dosage, according to a few tech-geniuses at a few companies. But I think it works much of the time, especially if dosed a little on the heavy side. Forum member, Regal Angel, has really raved about QS, he may chime in. There is another Quinine drug that seems to work very well to, but I don't have the name in front of me; its quite expensive and tough to find. I've bought some, read aprazo's info n the stuff, and plan to try it as soon as I have the right fish. In any case, let us know how it goes.

 

[JustinM]

Thank you again! I will keep this tank up and running once this is all done for the future. The wife and I have been talking about having one anyways.

 

[JustinM]

Fortunately I had a sponge in my sump, I forgot about that. And one more question, may I use any Live rock that I have in my sump too? How will that effect treatment with Crypto Pro? I guess that is two questions.

Thanks again.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I THINK LR , and any substrate, will absorb and release any med. This makes proper dosing almost impossible. LR shouldn't be used in a QT. Its only function would be to help with ammonia. Some folks use it to make the fish comfortable. IMO, this is silly. Fish are fish and don't know the difference between LR and pieces of pvc used for shelter & hiding.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Hi,

I added some Chaeto to my sump from a local reefer and a week later my fish started showing spots like Ich. I can't say it came from him but my fish were all in observation and everything went well so to the tank they went and this was well over a month ago.

I was going to trap them all and thow them in a 40 breeder and treat with Crypto Pro because of my angelfish and my mandarin. All fish are healthy, in terms of eating so i figured it would be safe to remove them into a treatment tank and let my DT go fallow for some time. My only problem is how will i keep up with biological filtration for 6 fish(2 small clowns, lamarks angelfish, spotted mandarin, black leopard wrasse, and a scopas tang)? I understand water changes but is there anything else so i don't go though a crazy amount of salt?

Any suggestions I would greatly appreciate it, and I learned my lesson that everything, even macro algae, must be held in observation for some time. I have been contemplating having a QT tank running all the time, I think this may help me to start that.

Thank you.

If infestation is light you can asap cycle a medium for QT now, do not wait another hour.

The only equipment that can simulate the dilution effect of the ocean wrt ich is the diatom filter, which few people now have. The diatom filter does filter out ich and will slow ich infestation down, while you ASAP cycle for a medium.

Practically, you should bite "half" of the bullet. That is to start treatment and do WC, and cycle separately at the same time. In three weeks your cycle will be complete and you limit PITA WC to just three weeks, not eight weeks needed to eradicate ich.

Do you have only LR for filtration? LR is far too unwieldy to be used in QT, esp if it already has lots of lives on it.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Fortunately I had a sponge in my sump, I forgot about that. And one more question, may I use any Live rock that I have in my sump too? How will that effect treatment with Crypto Pro? I guess that is two questions.

Thanks again.

How many (much) nitrification bacteria are in that sponge? Do you know?

It depends a lot on where it is. If it is located in fast running oxygenated water, there would be decent nitrification bacteria there.

Generally, a sponge is only a small part of the nitrification in the DT and will help only a little, not much.

If you drip water on the sponge instead of having it submerged, the nutrification activity is higher, I believe.

 

[Mrscribbled]

If infestation is light you can asap cycle a medium for QT now, do not wait another hour.

The only equipment that can simulate the dilution effect of the ocean wrt ich is the diatom filter, which few people now have. The diatom filter does filter out ich and will slow ich infestation down, while you ASAP cycle for a medium.

Practically, you should bite "half" of the bullet. That is to start treatment and do WC, and cycle separately at the same time. In three weeks your cycle will be complete and you limit PITA WC to just three weeks, not eight weeks needed to eradicate ich.

Do you have only LR for filtration? LR is far too unwieldy to be used in QT, esp if it already has lots of lives on it.

Didn't diatom filters go extinct with the do do bird?

 

[JustinM]

I have 2 sponges, 1 is in the return section of my sump and the other is being trickled over in the overflow. I will start treatment tomorrow and I will use my sponges and water changes to keep up on nutrient control. I also just got back from getting a new box of salt so I should have plenty.

What kind of medium do you think is appropriate to cycle?

 

[wooden_reefer]

Didn't diatom filters go extinct with the do do bird?

I still have mine from 30 years ago.

These can be useful in acclimation.

Sometimes some fish take some time to acclimate before active treatment. The diatom filter can be use for such brief period.

If you want your copperbanded butterfly to feed on your LR, you cannot use any treatment right away. The diatom will keep ich conc low as in the ocean.
(the UV will keep waterborne bacteria conc low)

 

[wooden_reefer]

.

What kind of medium do you think is appropriate to cycle?

I tend to use crushed coral.

Only a few pounds of it is enough for most people.

I wrap it in stretched out nylon into the size of large oranges or grapefruit.

On copper use, if you plan on using straight copper, it will precipitate on any calcerous material like LR and crushed coral.

You can use cheleated copper.

If you use straight copper, you can choose polyester and maintain constant level.

I use straight cooper but I do not try to maintain constant levels of copper; rather I use pulses of straight copper.

You can use either with copper.

Hypo is effective against ich.

 

[JustinM]

Well I need to add some sand for my wrasse. I planned on adding a small tupperware of it. Will that suffice as enough medium, already established?

I can't use copper because my angel and I am still not sure whether I should keep my mandarin in my DT yet or not.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Well I need to add some sand for my wrasse. I planned on adding a small tupperware of it. Will that suffice as enough medium, already established?

I can't use copper because my angel and I am still not sure whether I should keep my mandarin in my DT yet or not.

I don't think that's nearly enough cycled media. I wouldn't have a problem using copper with the angel. but I wouldn't use it with the mandarin. Feeding the mandarin in a QT could be a problem too. Keeping it in the DT is a tough call; mandarins are very resistant to ich, but not immune. They can carry ich with no visible symptoms. Their gills don't have that massive slime-coat. I have never seen anything that says Crypto-Pro (quinine sulfate) is dangerous to mandarins. I think the web site that sells CP has a phone-help number, I'd use it.

As usual, I've never used CP (QS); but think I've heard enough about it to comment.

 

[wooden_reefer]

The diatom filter is effective in filtering ich. The importance of this is that it may well buy time during an ich outbreak for the aquarist to cycle the medium for QT to eradicate ich. I have not have to do so for decades because I have not had any ich outbreak.

This is just a suggestion but I think DYI diatom filter is likely possible.

If you have an old RO system with the filter housing and a powerful pump it is worth trying.

First, possibly the finest 1 mircon pre-filter for RO application is good enough to filter out ich. You need a powerful pump to either push or suck water thru.

Second, if first is not true, you can use 5 micron pre-filter and coat diatom earth on it while you suck water thru it with a strong pump. The 5 micron pre-filter would act as "the bag" of the diatom filter.

I hope the material of the prefilter is saltwater proof--it is of course freshwater proof.

Worth trying DYI idea, I think.

 

[Mrscribbled]

The diatom filter is effective in filtering ich. The importance of this is that it may well buy time during an ich outbreak for the aquarist to cycle the medium for QT to eradicate ich. I have not have to do so for decades because I have not had any ich outbreak.

This is just a suggestion but I think DYI diatom filter is likely possible.

If you have an old RO system with the filter housing and a powerful pump it is worth trying.

First, possibly the finest 1 mircon pre-filter for RO application is good enough to filter out ich. You need a powerful pump to either push or suck water thru.

Second, if first is not true, you can use 5 micron pre-filter and coat diatom earth on it while you suck water thru it with a strong pump. The 5 micron pre-filter would act as "the bag" of the diatom filter.

I hope the material of the prefilter is saltwater proof--it is of course freshwater proof.

Worth trying DYI idea, I think.

He does not need a diatom filter being he is removing his fish. The sheer amount of ich present during an outbreak and amount of water passing through the filter, would make little to no effect anyways.

 

[wooden_reefer]

He does not need a diatom filter being he is removing his fish. The sheer amount of ich present during an outbreak and amount of water passing through the filter, would make little to no effect anyways.

Removing his fish to where? There is no biological filter to support them as is now. He can use Prime or Amquel in hypo I suppose. For how long do you trust Prime or Amquel?

The original diatom filter (regular size) does not have a high flow rate, only about 100-150 gph. For a 50 gal tank the turn over is about twice or three times an hour. The flow rate goes down by the day. By day four it becomes slower still, may be just once an hour.

How powerful a pump is needed to pump 100 gph thru a RO pre-filter? Only testing will tell.

RO membrane is only 150 gpd max, but the pre-filter is on waste and filtered water, so the flow thru is about 450 gpd or 20 or so gph. Can a pump go 50-100 gph? Only testing will tell.

May be even 5-micron without diatom earth will filter out ich.

 

[wooden_reefer]

"My only problem is how will i keep up with biological filtration for 6 fish(2 small clowns, lamarks angelfish, spotted mandarin, black leopard wrasse, and a scopas tang)? I understand water changes but is there anything else so i don't go though a crazy amount of salt?"

This is from the OP. Good concern.

The purpose of the diatom filter, or might-work DIY form, is to simulate the dilution effect of the ocean wrt ich so that the aquarist can get an active biological filter set up .

This is the point.

 

[Mrscribbled]

I once was in a situation were I needed to house a 5 inch tuskfish, 4 inch powder brown, 6 inch fox face, axilspot hog fish and a halfblack angle. All I had available was a 40 breeder. I placed a very large new sponge filter along with a bottle of bio spira. Never saw a spike in ammonia and day two nitrites peaked at 10 ppm. Day 3 nitrites were undetectable and nitrates showed up. Since then ive used this method with countless fish and have never had an issue. Ive started systems with dry base rock and sand and have the tank stocked instantly.

Only two bacteria products will do this, instant ocean bio spira and Dr Tims one and only. They are the same product. Micro bact 7, seachem stability and the others along the line that claim to work in fresh or salt fail to work due to the fact they are spores from land bacteria.