High Nitrate Help, gong crazy ?

[LPSpsCloWn]

Hi



After many years of 100 nitrates and neglecting my tank, i broke it down and changed sand bed, added new corals, controlling alk now, testing calcium and magnesium regularly, buying new lights, controller, pumps, piping, overflow box, ect ect, its a new tank and the sand bed in display is now 2-3". So a lot of work but my nitrates are still high and new corals are not looking great.



I need some help with reducing nitrates that are somewhere between 35-50 on the salifet kit, i cant tell too accurately as i am colour blind. I have had to remove some of my corals and will remove the rest into quarantine tank. As no matter how much water I change I just cant get it down and changing water is getting expensive. I reduced feeding to only once a day and my fish are starting to look skinny.



I did have 100 nitrates for years and broke the tank down and changed the sand bed and it was full of junk and gunk, detritus was full to the brim and my live rock is full of different creatures so its strange i had detritus build up. I have all kind of worms and things so the rock is good quality but it seems detritus build up no matter what.



So my issue is nitrates are highish 35-50 and better than before but not enough.



i tried vinegar and vodka dosing and neither worked, i had to stop because fish were acting strange, they would twitch wildly like they had a itch inside them. When i stooped the dosing for 1 week they would get better, when i started again they would start up.



I really think my rock has no denitrification bacteria at all.


I even tried a deep sand bed for a year and nothing, it did not work, i think the flow in my sump was not correct.



I tried a 5L of sera seporax and it also did not work, the flow as not correct.



many eons ago i also tried cheato and it grew like crazy but made a mess and went into my pumps clogging them and in my display tank, it was a mess but it hardly reduced my nitrates and phosphates.



so this is a brief summary of where i am and from this point on I don't have much options left.



What i want to do now is:


A) Bring a cheato in a algae reactor
B) Remove the rowaphos reactor I have and fill it with 1.5L seachems de nitrate with low flow.

c) Add 10kg more fresh live rock, maybe my live rock don't have bacteria on it.

D) Add another powerhead directly at the rocks to create more flow
e) MAYBE try vinegar/vodka dosing again but add new rock and some kind of bacteria additive to kick start the rock and also in combination with the above?



I am open to suggestions because i am lost and I do have some questions please


1) I know ALGAE TURF REACTORS can crash tanks because of the by-products of the type of algae that grows on them causes tanks to crash, there a very famous case of large commercial aquarium that had this issue and many times over, cant remember its name. But what about Chaetomorpha type of reactors, for the life of me i cant find anyone complaining cheato crashes tanks?


2) why did not vodka dosing work for me and why did my fish react so strange to it?


3) is it possible not right bacteria on my rocks?


4) what size cheato reactor and make should i buy for a 300L system?


5) before i had many corals i just did water changes and my alk was at 6 for many years. Could that be why vodka dosing does not work or affect denitrification bacteria?


6) my alkalinity is now between 7 and 8. I am trying my best to keep it at this but it does swing a little. I am dosing baking soda, it it safe to dose just baking soda? does this not increase salinity over time. Or does this happen when you start dosing 2 part, like calcium and magnesium together with the baking soda.

( i do 30% water change once every two weeks normally)




also any suggestions would be welcome.



Thanks Everyone and sorry for the wall of text.

 

[reefgeezer]

There's a lot going on here. Here's a start to the conversation...

1) I know ALGAE TURF REACTORS can crash tanks because of the by-products of the type of algae that grows on them causes tanks to crash, there a very famous case of large commercial aquarium that had this issue and many times over, cant remember its name. But what about Chaetomorpha type of reactors, for the life of me i cant find anyone complaining cheato crashes tanks?

Algae Turf Scrubbers and Cheato Reactors can help address certain inorganic nutrients but don't address or control dissolved organics. I believe they actually raise DOC in the long run. Neither, IMO, is suitable as the sole source of filtration in a system.

2) why did not vodka dosing work for me and why did my fish react so strange to it?

Vodka is a strong carbon source and easy to overdose, but normally the fish are not affected. About the worst case I could imagine that could effect fish is a bacteria bloom that would rob the water of oxygen. You would be able to see that however. The water would be cloudy. You may be attributing the symptoms of another issue to the vodka.

There are too many variables to know what is keeping your carbon dosing process from working. The system could be too low in phosphate or some other required nutrient, your skimmer may not be effective at removing the bacteria and other organic compounds resulting from adding the carbon, you may have rushed the process and added too much vodka at once, or you may just not have waited long enough.

3) is it possible not right bacteria on my rocks?

IMO, No. There could be a shortage of bacteria since the sand probably was doing a lot of the nitrate reduction and the vodka may have kept it from propagating also. It will take time for the bacteria to grow to the required levels.

4) what size cheato reactor and make should i buy for a 300L system?

I don't know. Maybe someone else will chime in here.

5) before i had many corals i just did water changes and my alk was at 6 for many years. Could that be why vodka dosing does not work or affect denitrification bacteria?

Normally, high alkalinity is a bad thing for carbon dosing, but really more so for corals. I don't think the low alk would affect how well it works of even make it affect the fish. The only way carbon dosing affects denitrification is by binding the nitrogen so the denitrifying bacteria can't obtain what they need. This keeps them from propagating. Once the carbon source is removed, it will start to grow, but there may be a lag.

6) my alkalinity is now between 7 and 8. I am trying my best to keep it at this but it does swing a little. I am dosing baking soda, it it safe to dose just baking soda? does this not increase salinity over time. Or does this happen when you start dosing 2 part, like calcium and magnesium together with the baking soda.

( i do 30% water change once every two weeks normally)

7-8 dKh is good. With no corals, you really shouldn't need to dose anything though. The water changes you do should keep up with alk, calcium, & magnesium. Are you dissolving the baking soda before dosing it? Unless you are dosing a lot of baking soda, it won't affect salinity enough to matter.

also any suggestions would be welcome.

Slow down & have a plan. Before changing anything, understand how the system is operating. Fix one thing at a time.

 

[LPSpsCloWn]

Hi there,



Thanks for taking time to read and help with my wall of text.

There's a lot going on here. Here's a start to the conversation...
Algae Turf Scrubbers and Cheato Reactors can help address certain inorganic nutrients but don't address or control dissolved organics. I believe they actually raise DOC in the long run. Neither, IMO, is suitable as the sole source of filtration in a system.

I am not sure of abbreviation of DOC? do you mean Dissolved Organic Compounds?


would a protein skimmer remove these dissolved organics?



I was thinking live rock, protein skimmer and cheato algae reactor as filtration basis and also a 30% water change once every two weeks.

There's a lot going on here. Here's a start

There's a lot going on here. Here's a start

Vodka is a strong carbon source and easy to overdose, but normally the fish are not affected. About the worst case I could imagine that could effect fish is a bacteria bloom that would rob the water of oxygen. You would be able to see that however. The water would be cloudy. You may be attributing the symptoms of another issue to the vodka.

There are too many variables to know what is keeping your carbon dosing process from working. The system could be too low in phosphate or some other required nutrient, your skimmer may not be effective at removing the bacteria and other organic compounds resulting from adding the carbon, you may have rushed the process and added too much vodka at once, or you may just not have waited long enough.

I agree with everything you say here, my phosphates and nitrates were high in the 100 at the time and phosphate was off the chart, i did large water change and reduced them to 50 and started there. The whole vodka and vinegar dosing took me about 10 months for both, i took it really slowly and nothing worked. You hit the nail on the head, my protein skimmer. I have a MCE600 hang on skimmer but the damn thing has never worked well or properly. Even after replacing every part of the stupid thing and the bacterial growth was bothering the fish. This is most likely cause of it thinking back.

7-8 dKh is good. With no corals, you really shouldn't need to dose anything though. The water changes you do should keep up with alk, calcium, & magnesium. Are you dissolving the baking soda before dosing it? Unless you are dosing a lot of baking soda, it won't affect salinity enough to matter.

I dissolve it and add it to my tank, i am using something like 1g of baking soda a day in the tank when the corals was in there. But i am not dosing magnesium or calcium yet. But will do soon.

TSlow down & have a plan. Before changing anything, understand how the system is operating. Fix one thing at a time.

Its excellent advice, i have to admit that i am kinda desperate to reduce nitrates and get the corals back into the display tank.



I have about 15 pieces of coral frags in the quarantine tank some medium sized some small and some large and the quarantine tank is small just 100L, i do a 20L water change ever 3 days to help with alk, calcium and magnesium.


I am struggling with the water changes to be honest, as the quarantine tank is upstairs and i have to haul buckets of water 2 floors up. So i am really determined to once and for all sort this nitrate and phosphate issue out its been bugging me for years.



just to make sure again,



Cheato macro algae don't cause tank crash like Algae turf reactors do?











Thanks for all your help, really appreciate it.

 

[homer1475]

Algae Turf Scrubbers and Cheato Reactors can help address certain inorganic nutrients but don't address or control dissolved organics. I believe they actually raise DOC in the long run. Neither, IMO, is suitable as the sole source of filtration in a system.

Completely not true. Many tanks remove all filtration once the ATS kicks in, simply because growing algae is all thats needed to removed DOC's. Remember all thats really needed is flow and LR for proper filtration in a reef tank. Everything else just helps.



I've run a turf scrubber for about 2 years now, I have never heard of algae causing a tank to crash?


All an ATS(algae turf scrubber) is is place to grow algae instead of in your display. The basic concept is to promote algae growth on a screen in which you clean once a week instead of in your display. No idea how this could cause a tank to crash? Perhaps if it wasn't cleaned and the algae actually started to die which would cause the DOC's it absorbed to be dumped back into the tank.


Your carbon dosing(vodka/vinegar) likely did not work because it requires a decent skimmer to skim out the excess bacteria it creates. This could also be why your fish were acting weird.



If your live rock had no nitrification ability, all your inhabitants would be dead as the sheer amount of ammonia would be poisoning them. Also you have high nitrates which is the end process of the nitrogen cycle. So yes your rock is more then adequate. Of course if it is very dense and not porous, it could limit the bacteria from growing which could be why carbon dosing also did not work for you. Also your rocks and micofauna are doing their jobs(cleaning detritus) the problem is your adding more then they can remove. The best things to clean up detritus is you!



If it were me, I would do another large as possible water change, then go to a weekly 10 to 20% water change regime. I would also go to small once daily, if not every other day feedings(assuming you don't have something that needs to be fed several times a day like chromis). Trust me your fish will not starve to death and they do not look skinny. Many many people waaaay overfeed their fish. My fish are all fat and happy with every other day feedings. Of course this is assuming you feed quality food and not flakes or pellets(I feed LRS and PE mysis).


Just remember your nitrates didn't get high overnight, and they will not be corrected overnight. This process takes some time to get things back on track properly.

 

[reefgeezer]

...I am not sure of abbreviation of DOC? do you mean Dissolved Organic Compounds?

... would a protein skimmer remove these dissolved organics? ... my protein skimmer. I have a MCE600 hang on skimmer but the damn thing has never worked well or properly. Even after replacing every part of the stupid thing and the bacterial growth was bothering the fish. This is most likely cause of it thinking back.

Yes, DOC is dissolved organic compounds.

I'm not familiar with that skimmer but maybe a better one is a more reasonable first improvement.

Completely not true. Many tanks remove all filtration once the ATS kicks in, simply because growing algae is all thats needed to removed DOC's. Remember all thats really needed is flow and LR for proper filtration in a reef tank. Everything else just helps.

Interesting, is there some reading I can do regarding the mechanism that algae uses to control DOC's? Thanks.

 

[LPSpsCloWn]

Thanks again everyone for taking time to help with this,

I've run a turf scrubber for about 2 years now, I have never heard of algae causing a tank to crash?

Unfortunately from all my research at the time they do crash tanks and most people don't seem to realise, it does not happen to everyone for some reason. There are some famous cases of this happen, i think one is the Smithsonian institute who has had many crashes. A very quick and informal analysis you can perform is to search google for "Algae Turf Scruber Tank Crash" and then search for "Cheato tank crash". Cheato tank crash produces not even on documented case from what i can see but Algae Turf scruber has quite a few.



https://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f6/algae-scrubbers-pros-amp-cons-210197-2.html

Okay...... Were do I begin?????

Lets start with a little history.

Back in the 80's and early 90's many of us ran ATS's. It took us years to figure out what they were really doing, and how they effected a system. In time, as our understanding grew, ATS's fell out of popular use, and for good reason. Then, not long ago, some guy, seeing an opportunity to make some money, came on forums like this making ridiculous claims about the magical abilities of ATS's. After a while he managed to get himself kicked off of most sites. He even got kicked off one site, twice. Despite the fact that his claims could not stand up to scientific scrutiny, many people fell for his sales pitches. Then those people jumped on the bandwagon and started telling their friends about this magical "new" technique. Now ATS's are once again relatively popular.


There was a time when most of the large public aquariums around the world used ATS's on their reef systems. Those days are, for the most part, gone. Kinda makes you wander why places like the Monico aquarium would abandon this technique on their reef tanks, if it worked the miracles claimed of it. As it turns out, it's really not such a mystery. The tanks crashed, the caretakers learned their lesson, and moved on to techniques that actually work.

To the best of my knowledge, the longest running ATS is on the reef display at the Smithsonian institute. They have/or had an ATS on the roof. Over the years, this tank has been plagued with failure. They stock it, kill everything off, then restock to do it all over again. You would think at some point they'd stop doing the same thing and expecting different results.

Here's a thread FutureDoc posted on one of the Smithsonian tank crashes.

https://www.thereeftank.com/forums/...h-200199.html?highlight=Smithsonian+institute

Your carbon dosing(vodka/vinegar) likely did not work because it requires a decent skimmer to skim out the excess bacteria it creates. This could also be why your fish were acting weird.



If your live rock had no nitrification ability, all your inhabitants would be dead as the sheer amount of ammonia would be poisoning them. Also you have high nitrates which is the end process of the nitrogen cycle. So yes your rock is more then adequate. Of course if it is very dense and not porous, it could limit the bacteria from growing which could be why carbon dosing also did not work for you. Also your rocks and micofauna are doing their jobs(cleaning detritus) the problem is your adding more then they can remove. The best things to clean up detritus is you!

I actually agree with you as my skimmer has never really worked well tbh and I will try and change it and I will take your recommendation of cleaning my rock with powerhead before water changes. But honestly microfauna or living creature amongst the rock are not good detritus eaters. I have a bare bottom quarantine tank which has some live rock, turbo snail, worms, crabs, various pod life and ect ect and I always have to clear gunk of the bottom of the tank during water changes. There is always some rubbish left over that they don't touch or eat. So i am sure that just builds up at some point. Maybe in the sea its different but i am not sure if the live rock we have has the bio diversity to eliminate detritus completely. I could be wrong here.

If it were me, I would do another large as possible water change, then go to a weekly 10 to 20% water change regime. I would also go to small once daily, if not every other day feedings(assuming you don't have something that needs to be fed several times a day like chromis). Trust me your fish will not starve to death and they do not look skinny. Many many people waaaay overfeed their fish. My fish are all fat and happy with every other day feedings. Of course this is assuming you feed quality food and not flakes or pellets(I feed LRS and PE mysis).

This is good advice thank you, but honestly I have cut back feeding to once a day and the tangs are looking slim, their stomach looks pinched slightly and they are always begging for food and I don't feel comfortable cutting food back any more than this. Even my clownfish is following me around for food and he never does that. I think i will feed twice a day but much smaller amounts. There seems to be some controversy on whether tangs with pinched stomach = under nourished fish.



I am hoping that a Algae Cheato Reactor will help me get nitrates and phosphates under control at least the rest i can work on.



thanks for all the help and suggestions.



I best get ready for some large water changes lol



I would love to add another 20kg of live rock but i just don't have the space for it, i will try adding some seacheams denitrate in a fluidiser as extra surface area for denitrification bacteria.



I dont have a question, my new sand bed is between 2"-3" deep, i am assuming this is safe no prevent it turning into a deep sand bed with dead spots. from reading before 3" is still considered a safe depth, what do you guys think?




thanks everyone.

 

[LPSpsCloWn]

is there anyway to edit your posts?


Either i am blind or I cant find a edit buttion?

 

[homer1475]

Ok lets clarify things here a bit. What your referencing is using Turf algae in the scrubbers like they did years ago, and yes there are plenty of reports of tanks crashing when they cleaned their screens.



What we do today is to use hair algae. It grows faster, removes more nutrients, and in no way will it crash your system. Does the GHA in your display cause your system to crash when you remove it? I didn't think so.



Your referencing material from 10 years ago. Practices as well as principals have changed dramatically since then. I would suggest you look up material thats more relevant to today and not 10 years ago.



We have our own resident scrubber(well he's not here much anymore, everyone seems to be going to the "other" site now) and he has a very well put together website detailing scrubbers and how they work.


http://algaescrubber.zohosites.com/


EDIT:

The edit button is right down in the right hand corner of your posts, right next to the quote button.

 

[homer1475]

Honestly, other then the one site you listed, I cannot find a single thread related to an ATS and causing a tank to crash.

 

[LPSpsCloWn]

Ok lets clarify things here a bit. What your referencing is using Turf algae in the scrubbers like they did years ago, and yes there are plenty of reports of tanks crashing when they cleaned their screens.



What we do today is to use hair algae. It grows faster, removes more nutrients, and in no way will it crash your system. Does the GHA in your display cause your system to crash when you remove it? I didn't think so.



Your referencing material from 10 years ago. Practices as well as principals have changed dramatically since then. I would suggest you look up material thats more relevant to today and not 10 years ago.



We have our own resident scrubber(well he's not here much anymore, everyone seems to be going to the "other" site now) and he has a very well put together website detailing scrubbers and how they work.


http://algaescrubber.zohosites.com/


EDIT:

The edit button is right down in the right hand corner of your posts, right next to the quote button.

Thanks for the reply,



but how do you decide what algae grows on there, from my understanding you set them up and what grows just grows, unless you are introducing or seeding a specific type of algae? if yes how are you doing this?



I still see evidence to suggest these things crash tanks, I just don't feel comfortable or worth the risk specially when Cheato Algae can now be put into reactors and its compact and clean and don't get salt splash everywhere.



Thanks for the link it was interesting read.

 

[LPSpsCloWn]

unfortunately I don't seem to have edit button where you suggest it should be. I Just have "reply with quote", "multi quote this message" and "quick reply to the message". Very strange lol

 

[Uncle99]

NoPox and a good skimmer.
It will take about 2-4 months, but nitrates will fall.

 

[smatter]

Maybe your post count is to low to be able to edit?