How long does Ich live without Fish?

[alprazo]

Though I QT all Fish, somehow I introduced Ich to the display tank. It has been clean for 10 + years. Though the fish are not really bothered, other than visiting the cleaner shrimp, I worry about adding new fish and the stress of acclimation. I was going to remove all of the fish from the tank and treat them by hypo-salinity for a month. How long must I keep fish out of the infested system to ensure that the ich is gone? Without a host, can it go into a dormant stage?

Thanks in advance

 

[Patrick12]

With the temps we keep our reefs at, it will last ...really about...2 weeks without fish. But to be safe and make sure that every tomont has ruptured and the resulting theronts have had time to die, we go conservative and say at least a month, if not 6 weeks. Reason being, is that there are those "dormant" or scant reports of it taking longer. Hyposalinity is very likely to not kill it off completely...just so you know. If you are really serious about a crypt free system, if would be best to not do hypo and coper the fish in a QT tank. Just my opinion. I'm sure there are others....and you'll hear them.

Best of luck.

 

[alprazo]

Thanks Patrick12,

Just took every single rock out of my 125 to find a goby that didn't want to leave his home. The fish are now all alone and and I started to drop the Salinity.

Six weeks of Hypo won't eradicate the crypto? I do not plan on going through this again anytime soon.

If i medicate, Cu or does Quinine have a place; anyone?

 

[Patrick12]

Copper is the gold standard, but there are "reports" of resistant strains that seem to not be bothered by copper. Surely the outliers there. I would go with Cu. Make sure it is ionic, not chealated or aminized and keep it at 0.2 ppm for 14 days at 80F. That should do it. The key is to not let the Cu level drop. Ionic copper is not real stable but that is part of what makes it so reactive and deadly to the theronts you are going after. Good luck.

 

[stingythingy45]

It takes 6-8 weeks for Ich to cycle through and die off.
IMO you really don't need to use copper on every fish in QT.
I just went through 7 weeks of hypo with my fish and left the display fallow fo that time.I actually had a small break out at 4 weeks in hypo.The fish are back in the display and everything went fine........phew.

 

[Patrick12]

If you had a breakout in the hypo after 4 weeks of it, then it is likely that it did not erradicate them, but rather just allowed a balance between the parasite and your fishes' immunity. Be on the lookout for another outbreak if the tank gets stressed again. This has been my experience in the past as well and that is why I advocate for the copper, because it will definitely kill them off. If I have an unintentional temp swing or remodeling job in the tank, I do not see any more outbreaks. You can get the crypt gone for good, but you will likely need to use copper.

 

[Patrick12]

Oh, and you certainly do need to treat every fish...with whatever method you use or you are just making problems worse. They all need the treatment to avoid the parasite and avoid the isolated fish from a worse infestation when introduced back to the display.

 

[alprazo]

Thanks for the input. The fish are now in 17 ppt and dropping with a UV to prevent an outbreak in the cramped tank while decreasing the salinity. I've push the temp to 82. I also picked up some Cupramine - you would go with old Copper sulfate?

Anyone have issue with a combination - mild hypo 14 ppt * 30 days plus Cu * 2 weeks

 

[cthetoy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11883081#post11883081 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by alprazo
Thanks for the input. The fish are now in 17 ppt and dropping with a UV to prevent an outbreak in the cramped tank while decreasing the salinity. I've push the temp to 82. I also picked up some Cupramine - you would go with old Copper sulfate?

Anyone have issue with a combination - mild hypo 14 ppt * 30 days plus Cu * 2 weeks

Cu is more toxic when salinity is lower. That's why everyone recommend to stick with either hypo or copper

 

[kevin2000]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11883917#post11883917 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cthetoy
Cu is more toxic when salinity is lower. That's why everyone recommend to stick with either hypo or copper

Common belief which sometimes is true. I doubt a properly run hypo tank would have any impact on the toxicity of copper but a hypo tank which does not compensate for the lower alk level may have low PH which in turn may impact copper.

In general running both copper and hypo at the same time has no upside and some downside.

Hope this helps.

 

[Patrick12]

Because it is so hard to maintain the higher stable alkalinity, that you are used to in your display (hopefully true)....copper can exhibit a greater toxicity....especially hepatotoxicity (liver). I woudl not recommend doing both and would really recommend the copper over the hypo. Additionally, with hypo, there is less flow thru the kidneys so less ability to filter out the copper. HTH.

 

[fonz4u]

what is the cause of ich

 

[fonz4u]

what is the cause of ich

 

[Patrick12]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11898517#post11898517 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fonz4u
what is the cause of ich

A ciliated protozoan parasite.

 

[Patrick12]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11898517#post11898517 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fonz4u
what is the cause of ich

A ciliated protozoan parasite called Cryptocaryon irritans. Some also call Brooklynella hostilis and Amyloodinium ocellatum by the term "ich" too.

 

[alprazo]

In my case, it is Crypto - I hadn't added a fish to the main tank for 3 years until I purchased a mystery wrasse about 3 months ago. Four weeks in QT looking great - into the display and my sixline that is 1/3 of the size, beat him up pretty bad. Well he developed ich and even though he went back to QT with formalin dips and everything else I had, he did not survive. Then I started to notice occasional spots on the other fish and they began visiting the cleaner shrimp frequently. Nothing concerning for the old fish but I want to eradicate it for any new ones.

For now I have all of the fish in Hypo 12 ppt and the UV went off last night. They look great. I plan to keep them there for 4 weeks at 80 degrees. As I raise the salinity I will look for returning ich. The tank is cramped so I would expect an outbreak if any survives. If so then Cu. This will also keep the display tank clear of fish for a minimum of 6 weeks and hopefully the crypto will cycle out.

Thanks for all of the advice.

Alprazo

 

[wan 2 B reef'in]

I have an interesting story, and I'll make it as short as possible.
I had a Q tank set up before where the fish in it had ich; in that tank I had a couple of rocks that had nothing to them just white bare rocks. I had taken the rocks out, and left them out for around a year or so (dry out of water). I used to use them for my QT whenever I got new fish.

Well, a very good friend of mine gave me his pwdr brwn tang and I couldn't put him in my main display cause I had an achilles, naso, and red sea sail fin, who all get along. Well, I put him in another tank I have with a lionfish, and a clarkii, all is fine so far.
I decided to put the rocks in to make the tank a little more natural for them, now thinking 1 year and some extra time in the dry it should of been fine right?.... wrong with in 2-3 days the tang and the lion were covered in ich, and the clarkii by some act of god was totally clean, with none of them having had ich before the rocks! (I had the lion, and the clarkii for over a year, and my friend had his tang for a little longer than I had my fish).

Well, I guess what I'm trying to share is that it appears ich can live out of water for a very long time too. The worst thing is that now I'm treating them when they were all totally fine before.

One more thing, I tried leaving a tank follow for 6 weeks once for a previous ich problem, and it wasn't long enough in my experience. I'd go 8 weeks if possible.

 

[alprazo]

Wan 2 B Reef'in

Nightmare story.

Cu is sounding better every day. I did go through this before. When I first got into reefing - back around '89 I had Ich in the tank. Every fish I added would be harassed by my clowns and would succumb to an ich infestation. I eventually moved all of the fish, treated them with Cu and ended up going with a coral and invert only tank for over 5 years. I did ended up with ich free rock but that was extreme. I was also having a nitrate problem and removing the fish helped. Skimmers are much much better today.

My tanks are currently all connect to a sump in the basement and PVC piped through the walls.

I think that you've convinced me to separate the tanks. Put a filter on the fish and run the sump to the invert / rock tanks for several months. I don't want to lose another fish.

Thanks for the input.

 

[HAROLDL]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11904184#post11904184 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wan 2 B reef'in
I have an interesting story, and I'll make it as short as possible.
I had a Q tank set up before where the fish in it had ich; in that tank I had a couple of rocks that had nothing to them just white bare rocks. I had taken the rocks out, and left them out for around a year or so (dry out of water). I used to use them for my QT whenever I got new fish.

Well, a very good friend of mine gave me his pwdr brwn tang and I couldn't put him in my main display cause I had an achilles, naso, and red sea sail fin, who all get along. Well, I put him in another tank I have with a lionfish, and a clarkii, all is fine so far.
I decided to put the rocks in to make the tank a little more natural for them, now thinking 1 year and some extra time in the dry it should of been fine right?.... wrong with in 2-3 days the tang and the lion were covered in ich, and the clarkii by some act of god was totally clean, with none of them having had ich before the rocks! (I had the lion, and the clarkii for over a year, and my friend had his tang for a little longer than I had my fish).

Well, I guess what I'm trying to share is that it appears ich can live out of water for a very long time too. The worst thing is that now I'm treating them when they were all totally fine before.

One more thing, I tried leaving a tank follow for 6 weeks once for a previous ich problem, and it wasn't long enough in my experience. I'd go 8 weeks if possible.

Are you 100% certain that it was the rocks and not the Tang?

It would be hard for Ich to survive without having a host for over a year. If Ich can be killed via osmotic pressure (hypo), they would be sure to die in a true hydrogen and oxygen atmosphere such as ours.

If you didn't QT the Tang before you put him in your tank, more than likely he is the cause. Your friend may have a healthy system and it may have seemed like a direct transfer would work, but the same principle applies as to buying from a LFS. A fish shows no signs in the store, but when you put him in QT ich or other aliments show up.

You could be correct though, it just scares me to think that Ich could live that long without a host in rocks. With the amount of LR thats in the Hobby, we'll be fighting ich forever.

 

[frednwilma1999]

has any one ever thought ich is a stress related ailment??