How to run an algae free tank

[mattsilvester]

Hi Everyone,

Been "away" for a bit...... was let go from work, so I've been job hunting. Got a job sorted for myself, so I am "rewarding" myself with a little "fishie interaction"...... and I just thought I'd share my current experiences.

I haven't done anything to my tank now for almost 3 months, apart from clean the glass - once. I have sero algae...... none.... it is just "absent" from the system.

There is a continuous debate going on regarding BB 'vs' DSB's. For me, the BB method has won, hands down. I am not advocating or suggesting that ya'll should follon in my foots steps, but I would like to share such that anyone who feels inclined can make up their own mind.

The tank is a standard 240, with about 200lbs of LR. The LR was "cooked" (which makes a huge difference). I have about 40-50 times circulation, 2 no. 250W MH lamps, suspended 12" above the water. My skimmer is a Deltec turbo 1060s, sump turnerover is about 5 times tank volume per hour. I have an 18"x18" area with macro algae growing in it, on 24hr lighting, with a single 15" tube to light it.

Fish are:
6-7" emporer angel
four tangs average 4" (powder blue, naso, yellow, purple)
Pair of clarkii clowns
4 no. lyretail anthias

and I've got a couple of dozen snails.

I feed a chunk of home made frozen food daily, a half sheet of nori every other day, and dried food whenever I think of it......

I clean the skimmer cup when its full, or when I think of it (once every 1-2 weeks).

Because of my emplyment situation - I have done no other maintenance for 3 months...... I've kept my eye on things, and nothing is out of place.

So...... I just wanted to share with people that I have no algae, the water is crytal clear, the fish are all happy and healthy, my emperor is now about 90% changed his colours, and the tank has never looked better....... and I have done nothing.

I'll try and get pictures later,

Matt

PS. I'll be doing a big water change soon (next few days) - as neglecting this indefinitely will lead to a tank crash in my view..... but it jsut goes to show that BB systems are not "on the knife's edge" as some would have you believe.

 

[mattsilvester]

PS. I also had a rowaphose phosphate reactor...... I disconnected it.... totally surplus to requirements it would seem.

 

[techigirl78]

Always good to hear good news! I look forward to seeing the pictures. Just a few questions.

Have you noticed any problems with your tangs due to the lack of sand? At one point, I thought I read that tangs ingest the gravel to help with digestion. I don't know if there was any validity to it, just interested in your thoughts on it.

Also, how many people did it take to move your 240 into your house? Did you go up or down any stairs?

I'm looking to upgrade my 125 and have been seriously considering bare bottom. I was going to move my coris wrasse as well, but would need to keep him in my 75 if I go bare bottom. Hearing good news like yours makes me consider it even more. It just would seem easier as I'm really looking at getting a porcupine puffer and possibly a trigger and want to make cleanup as easy as possible.

 

[mattsilvester]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13131372#post13131372 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by techigirl78
Always good to hear good news! I look forward to seeing the pictures. Just a few questions.

Have you noticed any problems with your tangs due to the lack of sand? At one point, I thought I read that tangs ingest the gravel to help with digestion. I don't know if there was any validity to it, just interested in your thoughts on it.

Also, how many people did it take to move your 240 into your house? Did you go up or down any stairs?

I'm looking to upgrade my 125 and have been seriously considering bare bottom. I was going to move my coris wrasse as well, but would need to keep him in my 75 if I go bare bottom. Hearing good news like yours makes me consider it even more. It just would seem easier as I'm really looking at getting a porcupine puffer and possibly a trigger and want to make cleanup as easy as possible.

Will try and sort out pictures (but be warned, my history of posting pics when promised is dismal).

No problem with tangs. I wouldn't make an issue of it, but I doubt there is any validity to the "sand and tangs" claim. Alot of tangs roam over the reef - not over sandy lagoons....... I supposed if they "wanted" sand they could seek it out..... but it just doesn't seem to "fit" as far as I'm concerned. But if someone else wants to chime in and say they've read a proper report or something, then I ain;t gonna argue But for my part, no problems.

Lifting the tank - just the steps into my house - about 3........
Two guys lifted it through the door & hall way. It was a bit embarassing actually - I asked two friends to come over and help lift it, but it quickly became apparent that all four of us could not squeeze through the door - and it just so happened that the guy delivering the tank and one of my buddies were in the wrong place at the wrong time - and they ended up lifting it most of the way! It was hard work though - if you wanna discuss further feel free to shoot questions over.

People with DSB's will swear that DSB the way to go. People with BB will swear BB is better. I have done both - and I will admit I didn't really give the sand a proper chance - but BB is definitely the way for me - its just easier, cleaner, and less risky. The key is, in my opinion:
1. You MUST cook the rock
2. You NEED sps reef flow rates - or at least close to it.
3. You MUST have a good skimmer - and I reckon macro can only help against phosphate and algae.
Again - if you want to discuss further - just say

HTH

Matt

 

[JustinReef]

Very interesting. Its all about balance in my opinion. I still see no real advantage to BB or sand if both are done right. Although aesthetically I don't like BB and will never try it again.

My tank is set up with a very shallow sand bed, huge skimmer, minimal flow, an abundance of Macro Algae, and I run ozone. Its stocked very heavily with 3 puffers, large trigger, rabbitfish, 8 damsels, Lionfish, Dwarf Angel, Tiger Goby. I feed frozen mysis three times a day, pellets once, nori once and a prawn each to my big puffers and about a quarter of a prawn to my little one. Sometimes substituted with clams, mussels, squid, ect. My point is I feed an insane amount everyday. I do a waterchange every three months of 20% and only because I feel I should, nitrates at this point are still zero (macro algae).

Anyways, I do a lot of things opposite of you but still get similar results...which is why this hobby is so cool! I do however get algae on the glass I need to clean once every few weeks. Never had hair algae or any other unwanted kind.

This tank has only been up for about 6 months now but its just a transfer basically from my last tank which was run the exact same with almost the same stocking for years. I think for my tanks, ozone has been the key to the heavy feeding and less frequent water changes.

 

[eisaiasjr]

excuse my ignorance...

excuse my ignorance...

Hello:

Sorry for this question but... what is BB?

Can someone shed some light on this and maybe some links as to where I can read more about it??

Regards,

E

 

[JustinReef]

Re: excuse my ignorance...

Re: excuse my ignorance...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13132859#post13132859 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by eisaiasjr
Hello:

Sorry for this question but... what is BB?

Can someone shed some light on this and maybe some links as to where I can read more about it??

Regards,

E

Bare Bottom, do a search here on Reef Central for it. Basically though its no sand or any substrate, lots and lots of flow and a big skimmer. The basic idea is that waste never settles anywhere and is skimmed out of the tank before it breaks down into ammonia.

Do a search though for more info.

 

[Prodd]

I wait in anticipation for the pic's!
I have thought many times about BB although i could never bring myself to do it, I'am interested to see your setup. Purely for my own curiosity.

justinpsmith.
'The basic idea is that waste never settles anywhere and is skimmed out of the tank before it breaks down into ammonia.'

Do you not mean that ammonia and nitrite is not broken down into nitrate, or am i daft and need to pay attention in future? As i assumed the nitrogen cycle started with ammonia and nitrite, and was then broken down into nitrate by aerobic bacteria in sand, rocks etc. After which it is processed further by anaerobic bacteria into nitrogen gas, this part being the idea behind DSB?
I hate to be anal, but am just trying to get things straight in my head.

Cheers.

 

[Recty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13133381#post13133381 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Prodd
I wait in anticipation for the pic's!
I have thought many times about BB although i could never bring myself to do it, I'am interested to see your setup. Purely for my own curiosity.

justinpsmith.
'The basic idea is that waste never settles anywhere and is skimmed out of the tank before it breaks down into ammonia.'

Do you not mean that ammonia and nitrite is not broken down into nitrate, or am i daft and need to pay attention in future? As i assumed the nitrogen cycle started with ammonia and nitrite, and was then broken down into nitrate by aerobic bacteria in sand, rocks etc. After which it is processed further by anaerobic bacteria into nitrogen gas, this part being the idea behind DSB?
I hate to be anal, but am just trying to get things straight in my head.

Cheers.

Well, you're talking about a DSB and he was talking about a BB tank.

BB lets the waste never settle. DSB does the opposite, and processes it to boot.

 

[ladyshark]

Hey Matt

you said you have an 18"x18" area with macro algae growing in it, on 24hr lighting, with a single 15" tube to light it.--is this in the display, refugium or sump?

If its in the display, how do you have it set up?

thanks!

 

[mattsilvester]

Hi guys,

Sorry about the delayed reply - the "email notification" has been getting caught in my virus checker again!

Ok - I'll try and get answers and response to all questions - if I miss any, shout out.....

Justin - indeed, in this hobby and in life it is our differences not our similarities that make us interesting!

BB concept - yes, essentially you are looking to capture and remove waste, before it breaks down. The idea being, if you can "capture & remove" the waste, in theory at source (or as quickly there after as possible in this case) then that waste simply will not break down in your system. In short, the way to do that is by (a) not allowing waste to settle (which is achieved through vigourous flow, and careful aquascaping) and (b) skimming that waste out through the use of a big skimmer.

Where the "BB" guys and the "DSB" guys differ, essentially, in my opinion is that a "BB" guy is not willing to put faith in critters and is paranoid with lots of "what if" scenarios rattling around in their head - while the DSB guy has a little more faith. Me, personally, I cannot get it into my head how it is a good thing to let waste accumulate in the sand - I'd much rather just get it all out.......

I think a BB guy tends to be the "engineering" type - "devil is in the detail" type - choosing to comand control rather than having faith in nature........
A DSB guy on the other hand is more of the "biologist" type - "the steady horse wins the race"....... "time & patience" type - placing faith in the system and generally "relaxing".
For what it is worth, I think the latter "DSB" types probably enjoy the hobby more ....... LOL.....

Just my casual opinions here - not looking to intentionally label anyone just sort of speculating and thinkign out loud.

I think the suitability of the BB method to you depends largely on your priorities and preferences. I like the look of sand, but to me it is not essential - its the fish I like to look at, and the BB look dosn't bother me. I find sand infuriating - espeacilly when it starts blowing around the place, clogging up my rock, and making a mess. I hate when the magnet falls off (although I rarely use it these days) and lands in the sand..... etc. etc....... I like the lower maintenance (generally) aspect of things - and it greatly simplifies the system with one less thing to worry about and one less thing to go wrong. Some see tank maintenance as a chore - others see it as "part of thier hobby" and enjoy it. Some people don't mind pottering around with the tank, tweaking things, generally "attending" to it...... some go as far as to find it theraputic - not me I'm afraind - I hate it! Some like coffee - some don't....... I don't - nothing wrong with either.

So, BB is for me - the sacrifice is that it does look a little "Industrial" and I can't have fish like certain wrasse, gobies etc. A sand bed does also provide a hige "biological" filter which helps absorb "accidents" i.e. you might be away for a few days, a fish might dies and be rotting away behind a rock - a DSB will deal with that ALOT better than BB will....... but the flip side is that if we have a prolonged power cut, I don't have to worry about a sand bed "dying"......pro's & con's

Macro algae is in my sump.

No pics yet - that's very naughty of me...... I'm always doing that - promising pics and not producing the goods. I WILL this time though...... I will get my Mrs to take them though, coz I'm an especially terrible photographer.

Have I missed anything.........................????

 

[JustinReef]

Great explanation!

I really wish I didn't mind the look of BB because I actually think with my kind of set up, it would work well. I have a lot of large fish and so much macro algae that the added flow would really help keep waste from building up. I "cleaned" the tank up tonight during a water change and was amazed by the amount of waste I found caught in all the macro algae and LR. It was really, really bad...Like I said above, my tanks been running very well this way for years but I do kind of feel like maybe Im risking it a little. As these fish grow and get bigger, Im not so sure that waste will be something my tank can handle. I also feed an insane amount to my fish and BB would be so nice and easy to make sure there is no food left over (which there always is in my tank).

I seem to be making a lot of arguments FOR a BB tank Maybe I can get past the look and give it another shot. You have kind of made me feel it could be the best for my fish as they get bigger and bigger. My sand is nothing close to a DSB, infact its only about 1/2" max and in many spots there is no sand because of flow.

We'll see, maybe BB is in my future again. I have so much caulerpa growing on the bottom of my tank that you probably wouldn't see too much of the glass anyways

Im rambling now. Sorry.

 

[mattsilvester]

Well Justin, the thing that finally "sold" me on BB was part through experience......

I was sort of heading that way anyway, when I got an outbreak of ich in my tank. I did not have te facilities to remove all my fish and treat them, so I took the unorthodox step of removing the LR & sand from the display and treated using hypo in the main tank.

The hypo worked (let me stress this is not for the faint hearted or slight of experience - doing it in the main tank that is) - but during the process, I syphoned out the 1/2" to 1" of sand that I had - the stink and filth that came out was disgusting - it was like skimmer gunk.......

In the 8+yrs of marines prior to that, I had always run a more or less BB tank - with a bit of sand in the corners....... and I was leaning back toward that methodology....... but then I read about "cooking" rocks, and while my rocks were going to be out of the display for 6 weeks+ anyway, I thought why not try "cooking" them. The rubbish that came out of the rock was unbelievable. People said to me I wouldn't believe the amount - so I thought that I was prepared and that they may be exagerating....... they weren't.....

So - that is how I ended up here, and I can tell you, I wouldn't go back.........

The bottom of my tank is about 38" off the floor, and there is a timber trim around the entire front glass. So when you are sitting down, the bottom of teh tank is slightly below eye level - which means even if I had half an inch of sand, I wouldn't "see" it.

To me, the "main" disadvantage of not having sand is that white sand really bounces the light back up - enhacing the tank in general and the fishes colours........ having said that, its that much of a difference....... if you had SPS corals thought it might be better in terms of light reflection.

I'll try and get pics this evening.......
Cheers,

Matt

 

[JustinReef]

Yeah well I think somehow you have "sold me"...

I actually "cooked" about half my rock when I moved because I had heard stories about the crap that comes out and I wanted to see. Your right, its amazing how much junk comes out of the rock.

I barely have any sand as it is in the middle of the tank because it just won't stay in the flow (I have a very shallow tank) and then the sand I stirred up last night was very dirty. The entire tank was cloudy. I doubt that could be good.

Anyways, I think I may try to siphon out some more and see how it looks. My rock work is already set up similar to how a BB tank should be with no real dead spots (except where sand decided to pile up) and I have a bunch of extra flow available (just had not been able to use it because of sandstorms) . Oh and I have a big skimmer

I can't believe Im saying this but I may end up BB by the end of the weekend.

 

[mattsilvester]

Well Justin, in my opinion - go for it..... all I can say is I did, and I'm happy...... there is of course going to be a slight upset in the balance for a while - and I would suggest prehaps running a little rowaphos and carbon (not too much since you have lots of macro) - and by default if you are syphoning out the sand you'll be doing lots of water changes which will instantly lower nutrients and bolster pH / alkalinity / calcium etc......

Anyway - here's the pics as promised. My Mrs. told me where to go for the photo's so ya'll will have to suffer mine.

What the pictures don't show is that about 50% of the base is covered in coraline also. This doesn't "hide" the fact its BB but it helps a little

Regards

Matt

PS. Justin, if you do it, you'll probably need to do a 20% water change weekly for about 6 weeks for the gunk that will percipitate out of the rock...... but its no great hardship really.

 

[mattsilvester]

God..... my fish look crap in those pics..... they actually have good strong solid colouring...... a little bit of faih and imagination is needed

 

[mattsilvester]

Here is a picture of the emporer a couple of weeks ago...... to be fair to the fish, he is a little bit nicer than that in the flesh..... I don't kow how to photo shop pictures to make them look more relaistic:

 

[Grouperhead]

Very nice matt. I've about deciding when I set up my next tank (125-180g) it will be bb. Your tank looks very clean and nice. I've also enjoyed watching your emp develop. Looks great. Keep it up.

Bo

 

[JustinReef]

Nice pics!

So since I was home today with not much to do, I siphoned out all the sand (as much as I could get for now anyways). Man it was a lot of work and the crap that was in the sand was ridiculous! The bucket I siphoned the sand into looked like a big skimmer collection cup.

The water got very murky during this process but the fish seem to be fine, I will monitor the tank closely to make sure all is well. Im skimming very wet right now to try to get as much of the free floating stuff out.

One thing I need to decide now is whether or not I can keep any of my macro algae in the display and still achieve the purpose of a BB tank. The macro really collects a lot of waste in it.

I was hoping to have a "planted" BB tank I guess but Im not so sure that will work. Some of the macro is very high up in the tank on rocks and I think that stuff is fine but its the stuff on the bottom I worry about. It will collect waste for sure.

Hopefully it will work though since I really would hate to loose my sand AND macro algae

 

[mattsilvester]

I'd say the macro will be fine..... just crop i back regularly..... and without the sand, you can turn up the flow, and that will keep alot of it clear.

The macro in my system is after the skimmer, and as such acts as a mechanical filter....... Haven't touched that either for months, but the time is coming to syhon out some sludge and crop back the macro......

Some use filter socks...... too much work for me I'm afraid..... its probably better to use them, but I know I wouldn't clean them propoerly.