Hypo no good, going Cupramine!

[Painted skin]

I have 150 gal FOWLR stocked with mostly large breed angel and 1 Australian Harlequin Tusk. I just recently went through Hypo 1.008 SG, eveything was looking good except I was starting to get fungus near the end of treatment and been told it was due to hypo. So I had QT the fish and treat for fungus.
It's obvious I didn't catch all the ich.. :mad2:

So now instead of going through all that trouble I'm going to use copper and go fish less. That leads me to a few questions as I've never used Cupramine before..

What is the safe level of Cupramine to use on large angels?

Will the med make the fish loose their appetite?

How long should treatment with Cupramine take to eradicate ich so I can stop treating and leave the fish in QT and leave the DT fish less planning on 8wks fish less?

Actually I can't say for sure whether the hypo didn't work, because come to think of it I did add a bunch of live sand from some one I know I did rinse the sand with fresh water, but that doesn't mean anything. So instead of taking the chance that it was hypo that didn't work I want to give Cupramine a go instead..

Here is another thought since my DT has no invert or corals, while the fish is in treatment in QT and the DT I was thinking on letting it go fish less and nuke it with fresh water with 0 SG would this help to eradicate ich in my DT?

 

[Mrscribbled]

The only thing that will truly erradicate ich cysts is a biocide. In your situation this is what has worked for me numerous times and I recommend.

Place the fish into quarantine, over a weeks time get the cupramine to .35, maintain that for a month. Being you have no inverts directly dump a gallon of bleach into the system and leave run for twelve hours. Then remove rock, substrate, pumps, powerheads, skimmer, and rinse well. Drain tank and sump and rinse well. Let everything air dry two weeks ( until no clorine smell). Then set your system up to running order again. Use a dose of prime for first few days to make sure the rock is good and no clorine smell comes back. Then once ready get some ammonia chloride and add to the system till you have about 1ppm ammonia. Then add Dr Tim s one and only or instant ocean bio spira to culture your system. Once things look good and cycle is done (usually three days) fire the skimmer and bio pellets back up and start slowly adding fish back. One fish per week in your case) I like to add another bottle of bacteria once the third fish is added back.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Odd time for fungus to show up. Fungus is quite rare in SW fish; possibly a secondary infection due to the ich. Ich's coming and going can cause infection quite easily; but usually its bacterial and disappears. Just my opinion; but I'm just not a fan of hypo. Its very demanding and leaves a lot of room for error. It also seems to fail more than it used to, judging from the number of hypo-failures on this forum during the last few years. It's possible that strains of ich have become tolerant of the SG used in hypo.

Another good alternative may be Chloroquine: I'm new to this stuff, but like the recommendations. I have a fish being treated with it now.

I've used Cupramine for years and have a lot of confidence in it. I treat all fish for 4 weeks at about .35ppm. I stay between .30 and .40. I also take about 5 days to get to the treatment level. These numbers differ from the bottle's instructions, but SeaChem says those numbers are fine. I've heard they may change their labeling, but haven't seen it. Before adding any CU to the QT/HT; i make sure all fish are eating. if they stop, its the first sigh of Cu intolerance and I lower Cu, let them rest a few days, then increase Cu and re-start the clock. I use the same level with large angels and just don't consider them especially copper-sensitive. IMO & IME, with some rare exceptions; copper is usually an individual fish thing, rather than am entire group of fish being Cu sensitive. Copper is a strong med and I sure don't want to suggest that all fish will always survive the treatment. All fish won't survive ich either and none will in many cases. Fish with ich are weakened as well. But I don't think the loss rate is any higher with Cu than other methods. IMO, the DT should be fishless for 10-12 weeks. After Cu, treating with Prazi-Pro is a good idea. Some folks use Cu & PP together; but the PP is less effective when used with Cu; according to the mfg of PP. Be sure to test Cu in the evening, almost all ich theronts are released at night. Many copper test kits don't work with Cupramine; SeaChem & Salifert do.

SeaChem has a great site (http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Cupramine.html). The FAQ are required reading. They have great phone tech support too, don't hesitate to use them. A couple of last points; no LR or substrate in the QT/HT; it makes proper dosing impossible. Having a way to control ammonia is the downfall for lots of folks. You can't use the ammonia-neutralizing products with Cupramine (Prime, Ammo-Lock), etc..Have a lot of SW ready for WCs. A HOB filter with well-seeded media is the best way to handle ammonia, but not everyone is prepared.

 

[Painted skin]

The only thing that will truly erradicate ich cysts is a biocide. In your situation this is what has worked for me numerous times and I recommend.

Place the fish into quarantine, over a weeks time get the cupramine to .35, maintain that for a month. Being you have no inverts directly dump a gallon of bleach into the system and leave run for twelve hours. Then remove rock, substrate, pumps, powerheads, skimmer, and rinse well. Drain tank and sump and rinse well. Let everything air dry two weeks ( until no clorine smell). Then set your system up to running order again. Use a dose of prime for first few days to make sure the rock is good and no clorine smell comes back. Then once ready get some ammonia chloride and add to the system till you have about 1ppm ammonia. Then add Dr Tim s one and only or instant ocean bio spira to culture your system. Once things look good and cycle is done (usually three days) fire the skimmer and bio pellets back up and start slowly adding fish back. One fish per week in your case) I like to add another bottle of bacteria once the third fish is added back.

Thanks that's good info, but excuse my ignorance I'm not familiar with term "biocide" are you referring to the bleach method as mentioned? If so from my understanding you're suggesting I should nuke the tank with FW and bleach and start the cycle all over? Am I correct? I am all game for that if it actually works. Now of course I still have to go fish less and it's not going to speed anything up correct?

Instead of tearing apart the the tank could I not just use Pura Chlorlock to neutralize the bleach? If does mean I have to tear apart the tank I'm guessing I would have to rinse the sand the same way I would rinse or cure the rocks?

 

[Painted skin]

Odd time for fungus to show up. Fungus is quite rare in SW fish; possibly a secondary infection due to the ich. Ich's coming and going can cause infection quite easily; but usually its bacterial and disappears. Just my opinion; but I'm just not a fan of hypo. Its very demanding and leaves a lot of room for error. It also seems to fail more than it used to, judging from the number of hypo-failures on this forum during the last few years. It's possible that strains of ich have become tolerant of the SG used in hypo.

Another good alternative may be Chloroquine: I'm new to this stuff, but like the recommendations. I have a fish being treated with it now.

I've used Cupramine for years and have a lot of confidence in it. I treat all fish for 4 weeks at about .35ppm. I stay between .30 and .40. I also take about 5 days to get to the treatment level. These numbers differ from the bottle's instructions, but SeaChem says those numbers are fine. I've heard they may change their labeling, but haven't seen it. Before adding any CU to the QT/HT; i make sure all fish are eating. if they stop, its the first sigh of Cu intolerance and I lower Cu, let them rest a few days, then increase Cu and re-start the clock. I use the same level with large angels and just don't consider them especially copper-sensitive. IMO & IME, with some rare exceptions; copper is usually an individual fish thing, rather than am entire group of fish being Cu sensitive. Copper is a strong med and I sure don't want to suggest that all fish will always survive the treatment. All fish won't survive ich either and none will in many cases. Fish with ich are weakened as well. But I don't think the loss rate is any higher with Cu than other methods. IMO, the DT should be fishless for 10-12 weeks. After Cu, treating with Prazi-Pro is a good idea. Some folks use Cu & PP together; but the PP is less effective when used with Cu; according to the mfg of PP. Be sure to test Cu in the evening, almost all ich theronts are released at night. Many copper test kits don't work with Cupramine; SeaChem & Salifert do.

SeaChem has a great site (http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Cupramine.html). The FAQ are required reading. They have great phone tech support too, don't hesitate to use them. A couple of last points; no LR or substrate in the QT/HT; it makes proper dosing impossible. Having a way to control ammonia is the downfall for lots of folks. You can't use the ammonia-neutralizing products with Cupramine (Prime, Ammo-Lock), etc..Have a lot of SW ready for WCs. A HOB filter with well-seeded media is the best way to handle ammonia, but not everyone is prepared.

I do agree that the likely possibility of a secondary infection due to ich, it's just that I was I told it was due to the very low salinity that's why I saw the fungus and also that angels are very prone to fungus.

I have no idea where I would be able to get Chloroquine are you using it eradicate in QT, what makes it better than copper? I did order seachem copper test kit.

Right now it just started(ich) minimal flashing, twitching, and couple fish shows WS not all, but still I understand they all need to be treated.

 

[Mrscribbled]

Biocide is something that kills organisms on contact. Bleach or formaldahyde work best. Pour bleach into current water. May be easier to just replace sand with new dry sand since sand can be a pain to rinse and air dry.placing rock on cement and running a fan over it will remove the bleach very well. Use a shop vac to clean any water out of the tank and sump that a siphon or pump wont remove.

If you choose to just go fallw, it has to be a minimum of 65 days.

 

[Painted skin]

I think I would give the "biocide" a try next time this doesn't work, as I have a good 4" of sand in a 150gal 6' long it can be costly to replace with new dry sand. Plus tearing apart is too much of a task at this point and time is not something I have a lot of this moment.

I am going to QT with cupramine and slowly raise it to .35 like you suggested and go fallow and drain my tank and nuke it with freshwater for that duration 2.5 months +. I do not want to go through this again anytime soon, it's only been 3 weeks since I've finish hypo and here I am again.

What is your guys thought on these copper safe meds are they like "snake oil" like so called reef safe meds for ich?

 

[Painted skin]

double posted

 

[humaguy]

also remember, when using cupramine...never, ever utilize Prime or any other ammonia binding agent as this becomes very toxic to marine fishes.

 

[Painted skin]

also remember, when using cupramine...never, ever utilize Prime or any other ammonia binding agent as this becomes very toxic to marine fishes.

Thanks for the tip. Ya I wasn't going to use prime, because I was thinking it may bind with copper and render the copper not as effective, but didn't know it could be toxic. Though I was going to use prime to try to clean up copper from my 77 gal glass tank once treatment is finish and fish removed from QT.
I use it for my mixing tank which I have to use as a QT as my normal QT is too small to house all my angels for over 2 months. I guess I won't be doing that now.. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Painted skin]

I've been away from this forum for while as I got busy with other stuff, but I figure to update as what I did so far.

I've got my cupramine and test kit, but decided I was going to give hypo another chance as I wanted to make sure it wasn't something I did to foul up the hypo process last time. Such as using and adding used sand from another person tank and as well as I performed hypo in my DT as I wanted to nuke the DT. Also right now I'm using my 77gal hagen tank that is my mixing as a QT for all my large angels and tusk and I didn't want to deal with cleaning copper from a tank I will be still using as a mixing tank in the future. I will still keep cupramine on the back burner if this second attempt fails.

So far the the fishes are doing well as it was pretty bad. A few fish like my scribbled angel was peppered with WS, as of now the they are clear of WS and I am not saying they are cured only they are looking better and doing well. I will keep them in there for another 6-8 weeks.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Cleaning a tank after copper is no big deal. Wipe down with vinegar and rinse. The old myth that says copper is absorbed by the silicone is nonsense.

 

[Painted skin]

The old myth that says copper is absorbed by the silicone is nonsense.

That's what I was concern about, but not so much with it absorbing. More so that it gets into crevices of silicone and so on.

 

[MrTuskfish]

That's what I was concern about, but not so much with it absorbing. More so that it gets into crevices of silicone and so on.

I don't think you have a thing to worry about.
My 55 QT has seen at least 100 doses of Cupramine, never cleaned with anything. I use water from my DTs and copper is undetectable. Many/most wholesalers and many retailers run copper 24/7/365 with no problems. Before relocating, a University's SW aquaculture lab tested water from my old QT that had also seen enough copper to prophylacticly treat all the fish in about 1000 gals of DTs (Plus treating many fish for a little lfs). The tank was never scrubbed with anything, just algae/diatom removal. and copper wasn't above the level of newly made SW. (Instant ocean and probably all brands of salt) have a tiny bit of copper in them. If you keep the QT set up; running a poly-filter (the specific brand) will catch any copper.

BTW, if you a tank small enough to handle and want to thoroughly rinse it, this borders on paranoia: Years ago I (my daughter, really) raised FW angelfish and discus to support my SW habit. Hatching and rearing tanks needed to be bleached, I thought. My kid wasn't satisfied until ,any trace of bleach scent was gone. We put the tank, open side down, over the fish room drain (or outside) and ran a lawn sprinkler under it for a while. I'm sure every nook and cranny got a good bath.

 

[Painted skin]

Thanks for the info. that will save me some money on buying cuprisorb. Really like you said I have nothing to worry about as I have fish only with no inverts. I wasn't too sure about copper and I wanted to take precaution just in case one day I decide to go back to corals and inverts. Thanks for easing my concern.

 

[Painted skin]

This will be the last time I use HYPO, it seems kind of odd the first I almost lost a powder blue it did manage to recover, but not 100%. And this time I lost a Australian Harlequin Tusk which was in similar situation. Do I know what really cause it no.. I will be using copper now on to treat ich as copper has an advantage in killing other parasites that hypo doesn't and will follow up with treatment maracyn or furan to treat any secondary infection.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Odd time for fungus to show up. Fungus is quite rare in SW fish; possibly a secondary infection due to the ich. .

Bacterial infection can take place not only due to ich but independent of ich as well.

Bacterial infections more generally happen due to lack of previous exposure and physical confinement of the very small body of water called an aquarium.
All livestock share the small body of water over and over again.

Ich wound is one factor, lack of previous exposure and closed system is even more general consideration.

bacterial infection has to be the second greatest threat for most hobbyists. To me, it is the greatest, because ich is not a factor (as long as there is no bacterial infection) as eradication of ich is a matter of routine--ich is a dead horse issue.

 

[Painted skin]

Update:

As you know this is my second attempt at HYPO, because I wanted to know absolutely I didn't do anything like the first time to mess it up. So far I've gone fishless for 12 weeks now with only fresh water in the DT hoping this will increase the chance of killing ich in the DT. The fishes are still in the QT. At first they were peppered with WS and shortly cleared, but in the last 2 days I been noticing my Emperor been twitching and scratching against surface though it is clear of WS I know it has ich in the QT in hypo at SG 1.008. So base on observation Hypo is NOT effective dealing with ich!

What I would like to know now is, if I were to slowly increase the SG to normal to 1.022-1.023. Is it safe to treat with cupramine once it reaches the normal SG point or do I have to wait?

 

[DrPat]

I have used hypo salinity for the past forty years or so.I would caution you about the duration of exposing reef fish to hypo salinity for extended periods.I keep fish in 1.012 for 3 weeks with copper safe in the Q-tank.Add kents garlic guard to all food and 1 drop/gallon of tank water two to three times a day.also add vit C to food and 1 drop /gallon daily to the Q tank. Fish exposed to hypo-salinity for extended periods of time can develop kidney disease and never recover. IN THE FOURTH WEEK I START TO BRING THE SALINITY back to 1.025, if the fish are not showing signs of disease I then filter out the copper with purigen. The fish remain isolated for 3 weeks more and if they are eating well in a strong state of health with out disease I transfer them to the display tank I would not use carbon since it can cause LLD OR OTHER DAMAGE TO SCALES OF TANGS ,ANGELS AND OTHER FISH. ALL FISH SHOULD GO THROUGH THIS ISOLATED treatment before entering the display tank. Q-tanks should have a eggcrate cover, active biofilter, uv filter ,adequate light and water temp. of 82F. One other note ick is always present in our tanks once introduced, control is achieved by keeping fish healthy with good nutrition , kents garlic extreme and vitamin C added daily to all food good water quality and UV FILTERS TO KILL FREE SWIMING FORMS OF PARASITES.sand stirring will also increase the incidence of ick outbreaks.Fish can develope immunity to ick.

 

[Painted skin]

I have used hypo salinity for the past forty years or so.I would caution you about the duration of exposing reef fish to hypo salinity for extended periods.I keep fish in 1.012 for 3 weeks with copper safe in the Q-tank.Add kents garlic guard to all food and 1 drop/gallon of tank water two to three times a day.also add vit C to food and 1 drop /gallon daily to the Q tank. Fish exposed to hypo-salinity for extended periods of time can develop kidney disease and never recover. IN THE FOURTH WEEK I START TO BRING THE SALINITY back to 1.025, if the fish are not showing signs of disease I then filter out the copper with purigen. The fish remain isolated for 3 weeks more and if they are eating well in a strong state of health with out disease I transfer them to the display tank I would not use carbon since it can cause LLD OR OTHER DAMAGE TO SCALES OF TANGS ,ANGELS AND OTHER FISH. ALL FISH SHOULD GO THROUGH THIS ISOLATED treatment before entering the display tank. Q-tanks should have a eggcrate cover, active biofilter, uv filter ,adequate light and water temp. of 82F. One other note ick is always present in our tanks once introduced, control is achieved by keeping fish healthy with good nutrition , kents garlic extreme and vitamin C added daily to all food good water quality and UV FILTERS TO KILL FREE SWIMING FORMS OF PARASITES.sand stirring will also increase the incidence of ick outbreaks.Fish can develope immunity to ick.

Thanks for the input i am aware of the risk of long exposure in hypo, however the clock starts when the last white is gone from what I've read somewhere and ich can survive up to something like 10-12 weeks. At this point I have lost faith in hypo. I am planning on cupramine treatment and I just want to know if it safe to do so once I bring the SG up or do I wait once I do so..

I don't believe the myth of garlic as being a cure as there is no scientific proven fact that it is.. Garlic with vitamin c or healthy diet may help boost strength of fish and slime coat helping them to survive longer. As a cure that's hog wash so it does not make sense to drop concentrated garlic solution into the water doesn't make any sense.


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