Hyposalinity AND Tank Transfer Together?

[Reef Frog]

After 2+ years in the hobby, I have my first case of Marine Ich. The juvenile Royal Gramma is in a 5 gal bucket now with DT water as I lower salinity to 1.010 SG. Then off to another QT bucket with identical SG & temp for an attempt at a hypo salinity treatment (HS).

I read the RC stickies (awesome info) and they advised NOT to mix methods but this advice seemed to be directed at doing cupramine AND hypo salinity together.

So what about combining HS & tank transfer methods together? It wasn't directly addressed. Any pit falls? All of my low salinity SW is already mixed & temps would be exactly the same during TT, so no variations there to stress the fish. Since the fish is hiding in a PVC tube, capture will be very fast & as stess free as it gets with no net. The fish is eating, seems very alert and doesn't seem to be breathing fast (yet) but it was flashing/scratching sometimes.

So is combining these 2 methods advisable, superior to only using 1 method? Anyone actually try both methods together? TIA if you can advise!

 

[jduck]

I would only be concerned that your mixing up fresh water to transfer fish into. Do you have a QT tank running to put fish into for additional 9 weeks needed for the display to be fallow? Also is there any other fish in display tank?
Going through the 12 days of tank transfers to only put the fish back into display that was not left fallow is sort of pointless. Ich will return unless it is allowed to die off

 

[Mrscribbled]

First 1.010 s.g. is not low enough, 1.009 is required, second doing hypo and tank transfer is pointless. When doin TT equipment for both tanks must be sterilized after each transfer. Display must remain fishless 12 weeks.

 

[Reef Frog]

3 small fish in the DT now. Yellow Assessor, Chalk Bass & Tailspot Blenny. All rugged healthy 1+ yr residents. I realize they've been exposed & will isolate & QT as I can catch them. I have all equipment needed. The fish less fallow period will be used to adjust the LR & mount some corals etc.

I added the R Gramma without QT. He was in DT for 3 days before removal for QT & HS treatment. Never again, lesson learned! I was gambling on these fishes reputations as mostly disease resistant! Only the Tang tribe needs QT, right? Well that's what I used to think lol. Anyway my Rgramma seems to have adjusted to the 1.010 environment quite well. Going to see if it feels like pi king off a single live brine shrimp....

 

[Reef Frog]

1.009 SG? Is that small difference important to a successful outcome? Might give that a try....but seems low. I was thinking 10 PPT was the lowest recommendation I've seen. Curious as to what low SG level is fatal or otherwise problemtic to reef fish like a R Gramma? So what's the low threshold?

 

[MrTuskfish]

1.009 SG? Is that small difference important to a successful outcome? Might give that a try....but seems low. I was thinking 10 PPT was the lowest recommendation I've seen. Curious as to what low SG level is fatal or otherwise problemtic to reef fish like a R Gramma? So what's the low threshold?

Yes, Ich can live at 1.010. 1.008- 1.009 is required, so is a perfectly calibrated refractometer. Read the ich stickies above, you're getting some advice from folks who really know this stuff. BTW; Grammas are very hard to rid of parasites and often don't make it.

 

[sleepydoc]

+1 to everything written.

I would get the other fish out of the DT ASAP so you can treat them as well; otherwise you'll just be introducing more parasites into your treatment tank and simply have to reset the clock on any treatment you pursue.

Regarding refractometer calibration, I would calibrate it with calibration solution (generally 1.026/35 PPT,) and then check it with RO/DI water (should be 0.) If it's off, you can either attempt to make your own calibration curve, or calibrate it to 0 since that's closer to 1.008 than the calibration fluid.

 

[Reef Frog]

Good advice, thanks. I've abandoned the idea of using TT but will continue with HypoS treatment. I'll go for 1.008 SG and see how it goes. Luckily I have 2 good refractometers that I'm calibrating w 0 SG RODI. Also have marked buckets, a precise ATO & a fairly humid storage space so I think I can keep the SG from drifting upwards.

Believe me, I've read the stickies thoroughly. I chose HypoS over Cupramine due to statements that it will permanently compromise the fishes health & shorten its lifespan. It was compared to using arsenic by some fish harvesters. Any opinions on that?

I am second guessing my HypoS decision now, however, after all the stories of failure I've read. It seems like this fish should never go back in the DT again even if it appeared parasite free after Hypo treatment. Maybe as the only fish in the frag tank? Or after this treatment I could raise SG to normal levels, wait a while & do a Cupramine treatment as backup? Any thoughts on that?

Losing a $25 fish isn't the end of the world of course but I feel obliged to give it my best shot, plus the experience should be valuable as I intend to be a lifer in this hobby.

 

[Reef Frog]

Thnx Sleepy. 2 of 3 fish are captured & in another QT, now I must capture my wiley Yellow Assessor. Then need to decide on the "watch & wait" approach or an active treatment program. No DT to QT cross contamination will happen. Would you or anyone advise an active treatment even if the DT fish show no symptoms. I've seen advice going both ways but thinking better safe than sorry in this case.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Yes, Ich can live at 1.010. 1.008- 1.009 is required, so is a perfectly calibrated refractometer. Read the ich stickies above, you're getting some advice from folks who really know this stuff. BTW; Grammas are very hard to rid of parasites and often don't make it.

The human eye can read the difference between 1.009 and 1.010.

You can calibrate the hydrometer. If you have a good scale and a good accurate measure of volume, you can make sure that you create 1.009 solution. You then use the hyrometer and mark it with a permannent marker.

Works for me.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Thnx Sleepy. 2 of 3 fish are captured & in another QT, now I must capture my wiley Yellow Assessor. Then need to decide on the "watch & wait" approach or an active treatment program. No DT to QT cross contamination will happen. Would you or anyone advise an active treatment even if the DT fish show no symptoms. I've seen advice going both ways but thinking better safe than sorry in this case.

If they infected gramma was in the same tank as the other fish, they need to be treated and the tank left fallow for 10-12 weeks. There are almost certainly forms of ich in your tank.

I have never seen any solid evidence (or even anything more than isolated anecdotal accounts) that copper treatment causes long-term problems with fish. Many, many very successful hobbyists prophylacticly treat all new fish with copper. I doubt that you could find any fish that hadn't been exposed to copper during its trip from the reef to your tank. I've treated all fish with copper for many years and my fish thrive for years. I consider this whole idea just another of the many ich myths that are all over.

There is no reason to consider keeping the Gramma isolated after treatment, assuming you carefully observe for a couple of weeks after treatment. That would mean separate tanks for all of your fish that were kept with the gramma; the chances of them having no ich are practically nil. I've never even heard of this being suggested. Ich is not difficult to cure and , if done properly, you should have confidence in your treatment.

Just my observation: the number of hobbyists who have faith in hypo as a valid ich treatment is dropping quickly. I don't know if this is just hobbyist error or strains of ich becoming resistant to hypo. I would never use, or suggest it.

 

[Reefnation.Jon]

Question for the pros.

Since the parasite is only on the host for up to 7 days could you do a transfer every day for 7 days. By doing this you could use a smaller tank and not be as concerned with ammonia build up.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I have never seen any solid evidence (or even anything more than isolated anecdotal accounts) that copper treatment causes long-term problems with fish. Many, many very successful hobbyists prophylacticly treat all new fish with copper. I doubt that you could find any fish that hadn't been exposed to copper during its trip from the reef to your tank. I've treated all fish with copper for many years and my fish thrive for years. I consider this whole idea just another of the many ich myths that are all over.

Just my observation: the number of hobbyists who have faith in hypo as a valid ich treatment is dropping quickly. I don't know if this is just hobbyist error or strains of ich becoming resistant to hypo. I would never use, or suggest it.

I have used hypo before on scaleless fish, which are suggested as sensitive to copper.

For fish that I have used copper on, only one ever showed adverse reaction and none for long. Some suggest tha copper suppresses immunity system but i have not found this to be true.

The only adverse reaction to copper was a regal angel, which went on to live four years, with cheleated copper, Coopersafe, very long time ago. May be the bottle was too old and the cheleation has weakened, may be by UV, I can't remember.

 

[Reefnation.Jon]

Or even 4 transfers ever 2 days? Ich parasite is only on the host fish for 7 days. then drop of for 2 - 72 days. Would transferring ever 2 days for 8 days this would numerically work?

 

[MrTuskfish]

Question for the pros.

Since the parasite is only on the host for up to 7 days could you do a transfer every day for 7 days. By doing this you could use a smaller tank and not be as concerned with ammonia build up.

Every stat you read about ich is an average; ich doesn't play by the rules.

I'd start your own thread on this subject; its tough to follow and reply to different subjects.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I have used hypo before on scaleless fish, which are suggested as sensitive to copper.

For fish that I have used copper on, only one ever showed adverse reaction and none for long. Some suggest tha copper suppresses immunity system but i have not found this to be true.

The only adverse reaction to copper was a regal angel, which went on to live four years, with cheleated copper, Coopersafe, very long time ago. May be the bottle was too old and the cheleation has weakened, may be by UV, I can't remember.

Can you be sure the Regal's problem was copper after 4 years?

Not referring to your Regal: It seems that if anyone has a fish die in a QT while being treated with copper; its always the copper's fault. Some fish die while being acclimated, no matter what you do.

 

[wooden_reefer]

The oldest human being is about 125 years old.

Old people to do not reproduce. Old ich reproduces, likely.

No human being live past 130.

In eradication you have to go for the genetic flukes, but even flukes have limit.

There is also situational fluke.

 

[Reef Frog]

Thanks MrTusk for myth busting from personal experience. And the logic seems rock solid! Yes, the DT will be left fallow for quite some time & Cupramined.

 

[sleepydoc]

re: people loosing faith in hypo: first it's not as easy as it would seem to do, and if your refractometer is off by 0.02, it makes it useless.

Second, many fish stores routinely run low salinities in their tanks either to save on salt costs or to suppress growth. This may be encouraging hypo-resistant strains of ich.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Thanks MrTusk for myth busting from personal experience. And the logic seems rock solid! Yes, the DT will be left fallow for quite some time & Cupramined.

Copper in a DT isn't a good idea. The LR & substrate absorb & release copper and you don't know when all the Cu is gone. There will also be significant die-off from the LR because of the Cu.