i never cease to be amazed!

[triton_uk]

I'm living in Macau, south China at the moment. On my way home from work I noticed an aquarium shop I haven't been in before. I went in and they had a baby sea turtle in a 4" x 4" plastic box floating in a tank.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=127276&stc=1&d=1285331674

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=127277&stc=1&d=1285331756

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=127278&stc=1&d=1285331789

I'm going to get hold of the government department in charge of importing livestock etc. tomorrow and let them know. Can anyone tell me what type of turtle it is? Sorry there not the best pics, they were on my phone. I'm pretty sure all sea turtles are cities 1 protected though yeah?

 

[xristos]

Sure hope the are protected.

 

[shaggss]

triton_uk

yes very sad, but dont expect too much help from any gov dept. I live in Hong Kong and while the diversity of animals available is mind blowing, not much care, love or thought goes into their well being.

I hope you have some luck

cheers :beer:

 

[triton_uk]

Hi shaggs

I work as an aquarist in Macau so I have a lot of experience jumping through hoops with the government when it comes to importing animals. We are on a first name basis with most of the vets who have to inspect live stock when it enters the country and you would be surprised how strict they can be.

My only worry is that I wont be able to get hold of them until Monday and the turtle could be swimming around in some kids goldfish bowl by then. The thought has crossed my mind to buy the turtle with a recept tomorrow and find somewhere to house it until Monday then take it up with the Macau government, there are all kinds of risks involved in that though.

 

[JHemdal]

That looks like it might be a green sea turtle, but I believe there is another species, similar to the green, that is found off Australia (and maybe north to China as well?)

Greens have been listed as CITES appendix I for many years, and China is a member nation, so the sale of that animal outside China would definately be illegal. I would imagine that this would also be illegal to posess in China, but I don't know their local laws....

Jay

 

[stevejrnc]

This is a tuff issue I have a friend
in okinawa that saw a full size sea turtle at a whole marine place
alot if people know this is wrong
but how do you change the culture of thinking
of the people that see it differantly

 

[ackee]

That's a baby Green Turtle, and not a hatchling. The small growth areas between the scutes indicate it's probably a month ot two old. In the Caribbean I've seen local people eat turtles not much bigger than that. Frequently.
Two summers ago, I actually seined up a Green Sea Turtle in a NJ inlet. Its shell was about 12 inches long, and it was sheltering beneath a mass of floating vegatation under which we intentionally dragged the 8 meter seine. I've caught Ridleys and small Loggerheads up here, but that was my first Green. I hope it found it's way back into offshore currents that might carry it to more hospitable climes.

People are ravenous omnivorous beasts. Many of our self-justifying mythologies support our consumption of anything we can catch, with absurd claims that 'God' has given us dominion over all of nature. Our sheer numbers have reduced the natural world to a mere shadow of what it was when I was a very young man. Most of it will soon be gone, while crafty hotshots and media manipulators suck up the dollars that foundations make available in the vain and idiotic hope that somehow money can solve the problem.

 

[Dingo44]

If people in another country want to eat or keep a certain type of animal, who are we to tell them no? Just because we find it horrible in the western world doesn't mean we have the right to tell other cultures and countries what they can and can't keep as pets or consume. What if India decided to export their beliefs that eating cows is considered sacrilegious? How would the beef eating western world respond to that? Leave them be.

 

[ackee]

This has nothing to do with one culture imposing its values on another. It all comes down to individual choices; hopefully informed, compassionate and constructive choices.
I think the Hindu attitude toward cows is a good thing. If we used cows only for milk products, and gave up eating their flesh, the effect on the planet's health would be significant. A modified vegetarian diet would help individual health and also help our planet. Meat diets are destructive in every way imaginable, a great waste of resources and among the more significant environmentally destructive habits we have. I am not willing to let anybody do whatever they choose without comment, and some tiny attempt at raising people's awareness. We decry the destruction of billions of seahorses for traditional medicines while munching on burgers that cost, in the end, the existence of the rainforests.

 

[Dingo44]

This does have everything to do with individual and cultural beliefs being imposed on another. One person's idea of informed and compasionate choices are a product of their upbrining and culture. In China and other Asian countries they eat all sorts of animals we in the western world find offensive. The western world feels this way because we have projected our emotional feelings onto animals and see them as more than a food source. Some parts of the world sees that belief as impractical. Eating meat is not as destructive as you make it out to be, a large majority of beef and other meats consumed in the US are produced domestically. Tearing down the rainforest for farmland is reprehensible to westerners, but to the countries that do it see it as feeding their populations and growing their economies. The affect that has on the planet as a whole has been greatly exaggerated. The idea that if we stop eating meet will significantly help our planet is a matter of opinion. This idea that western culture has about animal welfare is borderline religious ferver, and expecting ther rest of the world to follow suite is akin to sending Catholic missionaries to the new world hundreds of years ago.

 

[LifeAquatic]

Am I the only guy who wants one? Maybe just for a month or two? I want a stocked SPS tank with a turtle. Also want the mini girrafe from the direct tv commercial.

 

[Dingo44]

If I had the money and expertise to properly care for one, I'd get a sea turtle in a heartbeat and put the mini giraffe on a pillow next to my gold DirectTV remote.

 

[ackee]

At the risk of seeming argumentative, I must reassert that cultural imposition has nothing to do with my comments. The waste that meat eating represents is well documented. I will
not repeat the 10% phenomenon, the massive flatulence issues created by vast numbers of cattle, and the infinite number of other issues that make meat based diets destructive.

I am not repulsed by the consumption of anything, nor do I have tender feelings concerning the animals we, or others, consume. My concerns are strictly pragmatic, focused on the preservation of as much of the non-human natural world as possible.
I'd like to see strict human population controls imposed. In connection with cultural norms rergarding food, I think it would be a very useful thing if we ate our own properly sterilized dead. The waste of nutrients that packaging corpses in metal boxes to rot in an inefficient manner represents is indefensible. Blending and packaging human meat(as in Soylent Green) would be easily accomplished. There may be some logic in Swift's Modest Proposal, though its inherent evil removes it from serious consideration.

The world has become insupportably overcrowded. As greater numbers of people in regions much more populous than the US and Europe obtain the funds needed to adopt the shamefully wasteful habits of the West, the collapse of the world as we knew it becomes inevitable. It is we, not they, who need to change our wasteful and destructive way of life.

 

[KafudaFish]

If people in another country want to eat or keep a certain type of animal, who are we to tell them no? Just because we find it horrible in the western world doesn't mean we have the right to tell other cultures and countries what they can and can't keep as pets or consume. What if India decided to export their beliefs that eating cows is considered sacrilegious? How would the beef eating western world respond to that? Leave them be.

Eating a turtle offensive? No. You can do that in the western world and have had turtle. It was a little chewy but otherwise fine. Go to New Orleans and head to the Crescent City Brewery. They may still have it on the menu.

Keeping an endangered species that is suppose to be protected under CITES? That is different.
If it is another species then that could raise a different point.

Even in the US some states do not allow a person to keep any turtle species.

Oh and one mini giraffe please.

 

[triton_uk]

If people in another country want to eat or keep a certain type of animal, who are we to tell them no? Just because we find it horrible in the western world doesn't mean we have the right to tell other cultures and countries what they can and can't keep as pets or consume. What if India decided to export their beliefs that eating cows is considered sacrilegious? How would the beef eating western world respond to that? Leave them be.

I understand your point but your comment is pretty irrelevant to this situation.

Firstly, from what i understand, sea turtles are just as much a protected species in Macau (which still follows a Portuguese legal system) as any other part of the world. Sea turtles are an endangered species which is why they are protected by law.

Keeping a sea turtle (which can grow up to 1.5m in length) in a home aquarium is no more of a 'cultural' thing here as it would be in America or Europe. It's ridiculous, the turtle is being sold for 600 HKD which is nothing and makes it even more likely to end up in some child's fresh water goldfish bowl. Look how they are keeping the turtle- in a 3" x 3" box floating in a tank!

Even is it was a cultural thing to keep sea turtles as pets it doesn't make it right. There are plenty of customs around the world that aren't right and should be stopped and that includes some of out own. Saying "its cultural so we shouldn't stick our noses in" is something i don't agree with. "Yeah, they stoned the woman to death but its ok, its their culture and they have been doing it for a long time..."

 

[Dingo44]

I am just commenting on the cultural differences with regards to the treatment of animals, stoning women is a human rights violation and is not even in the same ballpark as animal rights. I never lend credence to the comparison of animal rights to human rights, human rights far outweigh animal rights. We should and we do step into other country's business if there are human right's violations.

I do think my point is relevant to this conversation for the fact that not every culture thinks keeping animals in confined spaces is a bad thing, or eating them for that matter. They could care less and that's their right to do that, if local laws allow them of course. The international laws regarding endangered species some countries choose to adhere to is their business. Compassion for animals is definitely a cultural issue. I personally think it's cruel, but that is a product of my upbringing and culture. I can stand back and remove my emotions from the issue and see how other cultures can think differently about it, and not impose my will on them.

If it's illegal in China like you say triton_uk, then I hope you save that turtle through the proper channels. If it is legal, I still hope you save that turtle through some covert ops. type of action, but don't try to preach to the Chinese about how they should treat their animal and expect them to act like westerners.

As far as cow flatulence being a contributing factor to global warming, that is not a good hypothesis, and cannot be given scientific credence to the point where we need to stop consuming meat. Implementing human population controls is the mark of an oppressive society and the issue with over population has come up again and again in the past and every time has been shown to be false due to scientific advancements in farming, etc. Eating our own dead to preserve nature is an extremist idea and is in the same ballpark as the thinking that humans are a virus on the planet and that earth really belongs to the animals. Humans are natural and there is no way that I'm going to put an animal's life ahead of a human's.

How do you feel about the mini giraffes?

 

[ackee]

I'll put threatened species welfare ahead of humans every time. There are about 6 billion humans, and only a few hundred thousand sea turtles. Putting humans first is idiotic and narrow minded. We have as much right to live on this planet as other beings. No more, and no less. When we press other species into extinction or near extinction, we do so because of our primitive and now outmoded animalistic drive to survive and breed. We should be able to transcend that kind of thing, just as most of us have transcended the tendency to hit competing humans in the head with a rock.

Better a few millions of us disappear, or are never born, than the world become a human hive.
Take a broader view. Be less self-righteous in your "every sperm is sacred" missionary position.

I'm all for eating miniture giraffes and Golden Retreivers. Classifying eating dead people as extremist illustrates your complete enslavement to cultural conditioning.

 

[KafudaFish]

Ackee:
Just curious but do you now or will you have children?

I would also suggest keeping religion out of this discussion.

 

[ackee]

I have one grown son. Examining the concept 'human supremacy' tends to bring in theological perspectives. I will, in future, avoid that sort of thing. Thank you.

BTW, I still have my ZPG pin from the 60s. Zero Population Growth, a movement that started when there were about 3 billion people. Vasectomies after one child. Unfortunately, too many people think their bit of DNA is really important. A specious immortality of sorts, and to hell with the rest of creation. I suspect I'm getting too close to religious concepts, so I'll stop here.

 

[KafudaFish]

That is cool and I respect your views.

I have no issue discussing the above but others may find it rude since it is within the RC UA.

Just did not want a person moved on ya know?